Owen Hargreaves

Not a fan of those sitting midfielders though, they force you to play a 3 man midfield as the ad only a destructive element in front of the back 4 and nothing else. This is why the dippers have to play a 3 and why they are such a dull side as a result. I think Chelsea have had a similar problem with Makelele. He makes you secure enough but in the end, he doesn't add anything constructive so you need another 2 in midfield. I've always and will always prefer a more dynamic player who gets about the park and think that it's a far more demanding role.

Playing a Mascherano at home is just plain negative. No surprise he plays for Liverpool

Originally Posted by antonin jablonsky

Not a fan of those sitting midfielders though, they force you to play a 3 man midfield as the ad only a destructive element in front of the back 4 and nothing else. This is why the dippers have to play a 3 and why they are such a dull side as a result. I think Chelsea have had a similar problem with Makelele.

So they were playing positive, attractive football before Mascherano arrived and messed things up?

Benitez is not an attacking manager, when he won his last league title with Valencia Ruben Baraja was their top scorer in the league with 7 goals. They did play some good stuff at times, but the team was fundamentally oriented around solid defensive organisation and very high work rates from his players to make up for their lack of technical quality compared to the bigger clubs.

This was typically manifested in the form of an aggressive pressing game, heavily influenced by the Milan of Arrigo Sacchi, with a strong emphasis on quick counterattacks achieved using the minimal number of passes to reach the opponent's goal.

He has generally tried to achieve something similar at the dippers. Although I would argue that the fact that the technical and tactical quality of their squad is in many respects lower than Valencia's, meaning the quality of their attacking play is lower as well. These deficiencies are especially evident when Agger and Alonso are missing.

And 4-3-3 is not their customary formation anyway, even with Mascherano in the team. So the belief that his use is in large part responsible for their approach to football in general, and that evidenced against Arsenal in particular, seems rather misguided to me.

As for Makelele, Chelsea may not have played great football with him in their team, although in Mourinho's first season they were perhaps the most efficient counterattacking side in the world, but Madrid certainly did before he left. It was only when he was shipped out and a more "dynamic" player was brought in that Florentino Perez's galactico project began to implode.

A similar story at Barca, albeit the other way round. Frank Rijkaard began with a great deal of tactical experimentation, trying to find the right balance in the team. He shifted from 4-2-3-1, to 4-3-3, to 4-2-4, to 4-4-2. All without success.

Only when Edgar Davids arrived and they finally had a proper defensive midfielder to play the holding role in a positive-triangular 4-3-3 did things began to turn around. The football rapidly improved and they eventually pushed their way to second place behind Benitez's Valencia after going on a great run in the second half of the season.

Rijkaard has, by and large, persisted with this tactical structure in the following seasons, with Edmilson, Motta, Marquez and now Yaya Toure all being deployed in the role. In this period Barca have played probably the best and most successful football in Europe.

Those are just a couple of recent high profile examples of very attack oriented teams using one or more holding midfield players. I could come up with countless others, although I don't think that would be particularly instructive.

Most managers, even the most positive, believe in trying to achieve a tactical balance within their sides. In many systems, including those most popular in Spain, France, Argentina, Holland and Brazil, the use of a central midfielder with a strong controlling function - and thus a player with tactical and technical skill sets oriented towards that function - is a key way of helping to accomplish this. It does not mandate defensive football.

Serenity, I'm not critical of 4-3-3 per se, it's that formation with a one dimensional out and out holding player I'm averse to as itproduces negative footrball in my opinion. As you say, before they had Mascherano, they played similarly with different holding players. I think you can play really well, United could and Milan do for example with a 3 man midfield as long as those players have more of a string to their collective bows than just sitting and protecting the back 4. It's just my view based on the football I've seen ver the past few years.

Mascherano's got more to his game than simply sitting in front of a back four and breaking up play. I doubt we'll ever see that whilst he's at Liverpool. Fingers crossed he moves in the Summer too. I do like the energy Hargreaves brings to our game though. He may not have the same positional ability as Mascherano but I do like to see a midfielder pick the ball up and have licence to drive forwards rather than look for the pass straight away.

Serenity, don't forget Rafa's rotational policy. In Spain when he won the title with Valencia I seem to remember it working very well. Come the run in, everyone was fit and able becuase he hadn't relied on the same 11 or 13 players week in week out. He still does it here and it to date it has always cost him the league but I'd be interested to see Liverpool's second half season stats from January onwards.

Originally Posted by Whalefish

Mascherano's got more to his game than simply sitting in front of a back four and breaking up play. I doubt we'll ever see that whilst he's at Liverpool. Fingers crossed he moves in the Summer too.

.

He has impressed me far more when playing for Argentina.

Indeed. But he's a good player, and I hope he leaves Liverpool asap.

Originally Posted by Gazw649

True. How anyone can truelly judge a player who has been injured the majority of the time at his club and has yet to play a full season and who is yet to play against decent opposition is beyond me.

Spot on.

He's guilty until proven innocent.

It's not as if he upset his previous club my making it clear he really wanted to join United or anything, or that every performance from him for us has been top drawer.

AND he's half Canadian!

£#%&!er.

Originally Posted by antonin jablonsky

Serenity, I'm not critical of 4-3-3 per se, it's that formation with a one dimensional out and out holding player I'm averse to as itproduces negative footrball in my opinion.

But the point Serenity is making is that some of the best footballing teams in recent memory, such as Real Madrid 01-03 and Barcelona under Rijkaard have used this type of player in this way. Good point about Davids at Barca; I'd say he almost certainly saved Rijkaard's job. He completely turned them around. I know Riquelme has actually said in the past that having Mascherano behind them gives the creative players even more confidence to be positive and express themselves, as they know that have that insurance behind them.

It's not as if the current Argentina side suffers on the entertainment front with Masch in the midfield, either.

i wonder if opinions have changed on this one...

I'd still pick Scholes and Anderson if both are fit.

Originally Posted by S/Side.Red

I'd still pick Scholes and Anderson if both are fit.

without a doubt - the beautiful game.

i still believe that carrick and anderson will be the medium-term best pairing for us.

He was absolutely terrific yesterday. Well played son.

Yesterday he shown just how good he can be for us. He has a great nack of winning the ball back on the edge of our area without fouling the player. He's also very experienced and it shows. With him and Anderson in midfield we never looked like conceding from open play, we had a toughness that we didn't have last season. Last season we won the league and played great football but you always thought we lacked a bit of steel this season we have everything to our game as a team. We've got the spine to win the European Cup now.

Originally Posted by S/Side.Red

I'd still pick Scholes and Anderson if both are fit.

nft.

He was awesome yesterday, if Rio hadn't had such a good game he would have been a cert for Motm.