Scholes was pathetic tonight..

Originally Posted by borsuk

why the need to draw general conclusions from one match? celt - i know you've said similar things about scholes in the past, so you're being consistent, but yesterday was not representative in any way. i don't think you can use last night to support any point about scholes. what he did was simply bizarre.

But I'm not basing this on one game, as (curiously) you note in the next sentence. I've called him an idiot for the sending off but the rest of my comments have been measured and respectful because I'm talking more about what his presence in the side means to us tactically as a team rather than sweeping criticism of him as a player, especially over his career as a whole.

The marks of a quality central midfielder are showing for the ball, retaining possession and maintaining the tempo when on the ball and then being able to switch into a defensive shield ahead of your back four when you don't have the ball, preferably with the capacity to win the ball back. Nowadays, Scholes can still do the first part of that better than most but the second part?

I would advocate a horse's for courses approach. Alas, one of the horses is actually a mule and the other is a thoroughbred who's a little long in the tooth, mind.

Originally Posted by Sparky6899

I was pissed with scholes last night, but how many times did Roy Keane do that? His ludicrous stamp on the Porto keeper? FA Cup Semi final 99 which nearly cost us? But we forgive and forget because the good they do far exceeds their mistakes.

Anyway, Van Der Sar is equally to blame for that shambolic piece of goalkeeping.

[SIZE="4"]I'm not talking about him getting sent off, sheesh!

I'm saying it wasn't some "random mistake", he was put in against a side that play all but a midfield 6 and asked to do a primary defensive midfield role which he is hopelessly ill-equipped to do.

If Neville was fit, I'd have had O'Shea and Carrick in centre mid, dig in and look for that goal on the counter-attack. Doubt we'd have shipped two goals. We'd still have Scholes available for the game at OT where we'll likely have the bulk of possession and his intelligent midfield prompting will be of use.

His performance was reminiscent of Gazza in the 1991 Cup Final.

He seemed to be on a mission to get himself sent off.

I could understand Gazza doing it as he was/is a braindead cretin...

Originally Posted by celtbion

I get it, you all love Scholesey.

That's really nice. I do too.

Scholes is a far far better footballer than O'Shea. is that ok now?

Like anyone was saying any different.

The overall balance and shape of the team is better when Scholes isn't in it, mind. He has to be babysat by Carrick defensively and can't do the job of covering behind Evra/Heinze. This has repercussions for our wingers freedom to push forward. The position Scholes plays is also one that Rooney could do, albeit dropping from further up the park, and we don't see the best of Rooney as a consequence.

Ooh, that's not so agreeable is it?

The experiment of playing a converted striker in midfield became a problem when Keane faded. It's still a problem. I would suggest that Ferguson's rabid pursuit of Hargreaves implies that he might agree. Who did you think he'd be dropping for the likes of a Liverpool away game if we'd got Hargreaves in the January transfer window?

The 6'+ tall Geordie or the 5'8" striker cum centre mid?

Some are getting too hung up on my "espousal" of John O'Shea. I don't rate him any more than anyone else. He's just the only alternative. Try this one on for size, if Phil Neville was still knocking around, would people have been open to the idea of a Carrick and Pip centre mid pairing starting last night?

I got this wrong.

Fletcher is an alternative...

Kneejerks eh? Don't you just love 'em?

Originally Posted by wiganste

Kneejerks eh? Don't you just love 'em?

Any day now people will start putting 2+2 together and see that the quality of our football, shall we say, doesn't suffer when Scholes is missing.

As per Ruud departing the scene, not a sweeping commentary on the player's own performance level but rather how the overall team picture is affected.

There was method in the madness of the Ginger Prince.

Originally Posted by armchair

There was method in the madness of the Ginger Prince.

Yep. He was saving himself for Watford

Originally Posted by armchair

There was method in the madness of the Ginger Prince.

I heard he turned the bath water into champagne after the game actually.

Originally Posted by celtbion

No, immediately after the game I searched around channels looking for mentions of the game.

Then I went on a different website to wind up ABU types by bttt a few things, including me predicting we might hockey Roma.

Then, and only then, did I come on here to see where all the threads were mentioning how we missed Scholes.

Like I've said throughout this thread, Scholes is a very good player but we're better with another holding midfielder in there alongside Carrick.

That is all I've been saying all the time. It unlocks the full potential of a lot of other players in the side. I do get a bit pissed off watching Carrick having to wander around behind Scholes rather than being able to get on with his own game though.

You think Carrick is better than Scholes?

Originally Posted by silv

You think Carrick is better than Scholes?

Carrick is definitely more important to us than Scholes already.

Self-evident.

Originally Posted by celtbion

Carrick is definitely more important to us than Scholes already.

Self-evident.

i dont know about being self evident.

I don't know if Carricks game would be at the standard it is without playing with Scholes on a regular basis imho.

I do agree that Carrick is becoming a very very important player, can boss the midfield for years to come.

Originally Posted by celtbion

I think I'll do my usual thing in these circumstances of reading yesterday's newspapers. Great amusement listening to journo's getting it all wrong.

That is so true - all confidently predicting Fergie getting it all wrong and Roma walking it