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Unread 31-12-2017, 04:14 PM
red in cumbria
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flixton;4856289.
Blair record on making society more equal is a decent one
Highly contentious, actually. Labour did help the poorest in society after 1997, but did almost nothing to rein in the super rich. And the fallout post-2008 undid a lot of their work.
 
Unread 31-12-2017, 05:39 PM
tatty
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flixton
I don't suppose there is any point in saying that if Blair hadn't moved Labour towards the centre there wouldn't have been 3 election victories.
If I was a Labour voter (i'm not) then I would be furious that just as the 97 GE was a nailed on landslide with a radical left wing manifesto the party lost confidence and went with that charlatan Blair.

You may well get Corbyn in '22 but that is 25 years late and by no means guaranteed.
 
Unread 31-12-2017, 06:49 PM
Jammy Dodger
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sub three hours
I agree the right wing in the UK have been running things this past 40 years, that's one of the main reasons why we shouldn't have voted to leave the EU. As an organisation the EU has protected our working rights etc from our own right wing governments.

Without the EU to moderate them the right wing will abolish our rights, they'll call it "de-regulation and say that it is necessary in order to stimulate business growth etc.
So why have uk polices still been able to shift the balance of power to the employer over the past 40 years and decrease the share of income taken by labour? Weaken trade unions etc. Protect workers’ rights, my arse. Uk employers have gotten everything they wanted out of the government and EU.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tatty
If I was a Labour voter (i'm not) then I would be furious that just as the 97 GE was a nailed on landslide with a radical left wing manifesto the party lost confidence and went with that charlatan Blair.

You may well get Corbyn in '22 but that is 25 years late and by no means guaranteed.
You won’t get corbyn in 22 you’ll get his replacement, who’ll pretend he’s like corbyn and serving the majority interest but will be serving the same minority interests Blair served. And around we go.

Quote:
Originally Posted by red in cumbria
Highly contentious, actually. Labour did help the poorest in society after 1997, but did almost nothing to rein in the super rich. And the fallout post-2008 undid a lot of their work.
It’s not highly contentious, it’s bullshit. He made labour the acceptable Tory party because even the stupidest would get suspicious if the tories won every time.

Last edited by Jammy Dodger; 31-12-2017 at 06:57 PM.
 
Unread 06-01-2018, 02:19 PM
sub three hours
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jammy Dodger
So why have uk polices still been able to shift the balance of power to the employer over the past 40 years and decrease the share of income taken by labour? Weaken trade unions etc. Protect workers’ rights, my arse. Uk employers have gotten everything they wanted out of the government and EU.

I don't disagree with what you're saying to be honest but i'm saying things will be far worse without the the EU.

I think any worker who's employer is in favour of Brexit should start worrying because for me it's a good bet that company would love to see the European Working Time Directive torn up and current workers rights and protection removed. Similarly. the Social Charter which guarantees holiday pay as a legal requirement. It shouldn't take me to tell you that you can kiss that goodbye

Dodger, i know things were far from perfect with the EU but I reckon they could get a hell of a lot worse.

My main disagreement with the left who back leave is that I feel they are betraying their political roots - solidarity in particular. What exactly do you think the leave leadership of far right have in mind? Reinstatement of union powers?

Put simply If the right-wing Tories are on your side, then you're on the wrong side.
 
Unread 06-01-2018, 07:32 PM
Jammy Dodger
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sub three hours
I don't disagree with what you're saying to be honest but i'm saying things will be far worse without the the EU.
It will be as bad as workers allow it to be. Workers earned their rights through political power in the UK, and they’ll continue to gain or lose them by political power in the UK.

Quote:
I think any worker who's employer is in favour of Brexit should start worrying because for me it's a good bet that company would love to see the European Working Time Directive torn up and current workers rights and protection removed. Similarly. the Social Charter which guarantees holiday pay as a legal requirement. It shouldn't take me to tell you that you can kiss that goodbye

Dodger, i know things were far from perfect with the EU but I reckon they could get a hell of a lot worse.
Of course they can. It’s up to the British worker to either apply political pressure or not.

Quote:
My main disagreement with the left who back leave is that I feel they are betraying their political roots - solidarity in particular. What exactly do you think the leave leadership of far right have in mind? Reinstatement of union powers?
Then maybe British workers shouldn’t give the far right the ability to implement what they want. If there was solidarity, the right couldn’t do what they wanted regardless of Brexit.

Quote:
Put simply If the right-wing Tories are on your side, then you're on the wrong side.
I’d imagine there were right wing tories on both sides.

Last edited by Jammy Dodger; 06-01-2018 at 07:36 PM.
 
Unread 06-01-2018, 07:56 PM
sub three hours
 
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Dodger, unfortunately we live in times where there are not many strong unions left to make a difference. As such with this Brexit victory, there'll be absolutely nothing to stop these right wing Tories crushing all in their path.

I seriously believe that a Brexit led by the Ukip thinking wing of Tory party will make things far worse for the ordinary working person. You've only got to look at the people on the right trying to shape Brexit their way, Boris Johnson, Michael Gove, etc, those bastards have fought all their lives for one objective: to give more power to employers and less to workers. Many leading Brexiters are on record as wanting to privatise the NHS. These people alo revelled in the destruction of the working-class communities.

How do you think we'll compete globally outside the EU, if not by slashing wages, corporation tax and employment protections? Brexit is a dream scenario for those who want to be a part of the race to the bottom. Britain will have to be competitive on the international market. And being competitive means slashing wages and workers rights and probably the NHS. Put simply Brexit It's a f***ing nightmare for the ordinary working person.
 
Unread 06-01-2018, 08:10 PM
BarryX
 
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Meanwhile, up to £70m will have to be diverted from developing new cancer drugs in order to prepare for the impact of Brexit, according to GlaxoSmithKline. Is it still Project Fear?
 
Unread 06-01-2018, 08:28 PM
sub three hours
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BarryX
Is it still Project Fear?
No, it's an increasing reality Barry.

Surely only the real, swivel eyed mouth frothing, "You've voted that's it, now shut up and suck it up" dickhead types are the only ones still shouting Project Fear.
 
Unread 06-01-2018, 10:51 PM
Jammy Dodger
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sub three hours
Dodger, unfortunately we live in times where there are not many strong unions left to make a difference. As such with this Brexit victory, there'll be absolutely nothing to stop these right wing Tories crushing all in their path.

I seriously believe that a Brexit led by the Ukip thinking wing of Tory party will make things far worse for the ordinary working person.
Then it might galvanise working people to fight for strong unions. It might galvanise the public to keep the tories out of power for another generation, and this time we might get a proper Labour Party in government.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BarryX
Meanwhile, up to £70m will have to be diverted from developing new cancer drugs in order to prepare for the impact of Brexit, according to GlaxoSmithKline. Is it still Project Fear?
More like 70mil less profit to give to shareholders. Private profit that probably came from public money being used for research and development. But I guess they could divert the 70 mil from drug trials so the shareholders still get it, if they’re short sighted enough.

Last edited by Jammy Dodger; 06-01-2018 at 11:01 PM.
 
Unread 06-01-2018, 11:17 PM
sub three hours
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jammy Dodger
Then it might galvanise working people to fight for strong unions. It might galvanise the public to keep the tories out of power for another generation, and this time we might get a proper Labour Party in government.
I agree that things will only improve with a genuine revival of left-wing politics but with the immense media power of the likes of the Sun, the Mail, the Express and the Star etc telling people the same lies over and over again, in hundreds of different ways in thousands of different emotive stories, it’s hard to see it happening.

It was the fake stories, smears and attacks from these rags that led quite a lot of working people to be under the misguidsed belief that wagging their finger at the EU was an act of revolt against the establishment, to such an extent that their bloody brains shut down and they didn't even consider that the likes of Boris Johnson, Nigel Farage, Iain Duncan Smith and John Redwood are the most anti-working people, in practice, on UK soil.
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