The Glazer Reign Is Crumbling

They are obliged to hold a vote on dividend payments.

If the vote is split, it’s ‘rock, paper, scissors…’.

They’re seeking investment in the club. The club itself needs money, they’ve burned through the cash, can’t take dividends, revenue is on the slide and it’s an expensive beast to run.. The bulk of the siblings want to cash out.

Apparently there are 6 siblings, Assuming the 69% is somewhere near evenly split, 4 just want out by all accounts. 2 want to stay. They reckon it’s worth £6bn or thereabouts.In order for Avram and Joel to be rid of their siblings they’d need about £4bn, as I doubt they’d be prepared to let it go for cheap.

They don’t want to give any power away, so they don’t want the siblings to be bought out by a third party. They could find financing/a backer to finance them in buying out the others to give themselves the full 69% of the holding and then do a share issuing for 18% to leave them with a controlling interest. You’d have to doubt they’re going to cover the cost of the buyout via share-issuing (non voting obvs) 18% of the club. And they can’t offer more for fear of inviting a takeover by someone buying up all the shares that they have issued.

I don’t know the personal finances but you’d have to think that the brothers don’t have £4bn to finance buying out the other 4? So if that share issue doesn’t cover the buy out price. then they’ll be left with financing on the remainder. Knowing what we know about the Glazers, I can’t see them wanting private debts

The club needs investment, players, stadium etc. which is one of the things that kicked the whole thing off. If they had money to put in, none of this would be occurring. If they try to buy out the siblings as per the above, the brothers incur a ton more debt while the club itself isn’t getting any money. Or any relief on the debt. There would be a shed load more credit used to generate the money for the buyout that would need servicing and the club itself just isn’t generating the money to do so. They could look to refinance the whole lot I suppose, who knows what that amount would be though, and you’d hope there would be limits as to what is feasible.

Any method of investment in the brothers to remain in charge just looks doomed to worsen United’s finances.

I’m sure there’s some hungry financial institutions that know sticking their nose in the trough would generate them a profit from masses of interest.

Pontificating, yes, but just trying to re-assure myself that staying in any capacity that holds all the power is very difficult for them. I suppose they could somehow bribe the others to stay involved and turn down the billions somehow

Originally Posted by dunk

They’re seeking investment in the club. The club itself needs money, they’ve burned through the cash, can’t take dividends, revenue is on the slide and it’s an expensive beast to run.. The bulk of the siblings want to cash out.

Apparently there are 6 siblings, Assuming the 69% is somewhere near evenly split, 4 just want out by all accounts. 2 want to stay. They reckon it’s worth £6bn or thereabouts.In order for Avram and Joel to be rid of their siblings they’d need about £4bn, as I doubt they’d be prepared to let it go for cheap.

They don’t want to give any power away, so they don’t want the siblings to be bought out by a third party. They could find financing/a backer to finance them in buying out the others to give themselves the full 69% of the holding and then do a share issuing for 18% to leave them with a controlling interest. You’d have to doubt they’re going to cover the cost of the buyout via share-issuing (non voting obvs) 18% of the club. And they can’t offer more for fear of inviting a takeover by someone buying up all the shares that they have issued.

I don’t know the personal finances but you’d have to think that the brothers don’t have £4bn to finance buying out the other 4? So if that share issue doesn’t cover the buy out price. then they’ll be left with financing on the remainder. Knowing what we know about the Glazers, I can’t see them wanting private debts

The club needs investment, players, stadium etc. which is one of the things that kicked the whole thing off. If they had money to put in, none of this would be occurring. If they try to buy out the siblings as per the above, the brothers incur a ton more debt while the club itself isn’t getting any money. Or any relief on the debt. There would be a shed load more credit used to generate the money for the buyout that would need servicing and the club itself just isn’t generating the money to do so. They could look to refinance the whole lot I suppose, who knows what that amount would be though, and you’d hope there would be limits as to what is feasible.

Any method of investment in the brothers to remain in charge just looks doomed to worsen United’s finances.

I’m sure there’s some hungry financial institutions that know sticking their nose in the trough would generate them a profit from masses of interest.

Pontificating, yes, but just trying to re-assure myself that staying in any capacity that holds all the power is very difficult for them. I suppose they could somehow bribe the others to stay involved and turn down the billions somehow

Para 1: "cash" is a profit and loss issue

If the club owes the owner "cash" or a dividend it goes on the balance sheet as debt

para 2:

When one sibling buys out the other, it has nothing to do with united, it would hbe a private deal amongst themselves, supported by bank grantees, and we all know how much they have zero problem with getting into debt

Right. They could put it on the books as debt, but as the club has no cash, and is sliding further into debt to the tune of £2m a week, they can’t take it out at any point, can they? It just means the club owes them money we’re it to suddenly come into a bundle of cash.

I’ve not said buying the siblings out was linked to the club? They have zero problem getting into debt that can be shifted onto an asset.

Originally Posted by dunk

Right. They could put it on the books as debt, but as the club has no cash, and is sliding further into debt to the tune of £2m a week, they can’t take it out at any point, can they? It just means the club owes them money we’re it to suddenly come into a bundle of cash.

I’ve not said buying the siblings out was linked to the club? They have zero problem getting into debt that can be shifted onto an asset.

First up:

united isn't the galzers

The glazers aren't united

United is a separate legal thing, a blob on its own

if united owe the glazers something, it doesnt have to be liquid cash

it's debt

this is how they have us

I’ve never said United are the Glazer’s or vice-versa or implied it.

They own 69% of the shares and take dividends when they can, historically every year until this one, usually in the form of cash, which they couldn’t this year. They’ve been taking money out of the club as dividends and by virtue of the club servicing the debts they took on in order to initially buy the club. They’ve since issued 31% of the club as non voting shares in order to generate funds which have gone directly to them, if I’m not mistaken.

If they need the cash, for whatever reason, but can no longer take it as it isn’t there, it being on our books as a debt doesn’t too much for them, other than it going in their accounts as a debtor.

You seem to labouring under the illusion that I think United are going to have to give the money to buy the siblings out. No. I believe that the 2 brothers would have to take personal debt to do so, but wouldn’t be able to service it themselves as they’ve not got the money/investments (evidenced by them bleeding United for 18 years), and that the club couldn’t service it either, as they managed to arrange by shifting it over during the initial purchase. Nor would any future share sale issue of anything above a controlling stake be enough to pay off the money they’d had to borrow to buy out their siblings. Meaning it’s £#%&!ing difficult for them to stick around.

Second

Joel and avrum or whoever could buy out the other family member's united shares with no impact on united at all (it would be a transaction between parties other than united) (and I actually think this might be an okayish occurance)

They (joel etc) woul take bank loans and promise to pay their siblings X amount of pounds in the near future depending upon them themselves (in which they take all the risks) making a profit on united

i give up

trying to be helpful, u too defensive to have a convo with

I’m not being defensive. You seem to be misunderstanding. I know the transactions would be between the siblings. I’m just saying it would all have to be financed and paid for and it looks massively too expensive for them

I have a masters degree in accounts

please dont be like this at work brother

I’m not saying you don’t

Would it be a hugely expensive operation for 2 of them to buy out the remainder at the current valuation?

Originally Posted by dunk

I’m not saying you don’t

Would it be a hugely expensive operation for 2 of them to buy out the remainder at the current valuation?

a company is only worth what the buyer is willing to offer

and as they can put it all on a bank futrue promise to pay...

no

Originally Posted by Drexl

a company is only worth what the buyer is willing to offer

and as they can put it all on a bank futrue promise to pay...

no

Ah fair enough, so you’re operating under the assumption that the other 4 will turn down a billion each from a complete sale and accept a much lower amount paid over a long period of time instead?

Fair play if they do.

My assumption is they’re all grabbing greedy @#%&!s out for as much as they can get asap.

Originally Posted by dunk

Ah fair enough, so you’re operating under the assumption that the other 4 will turn down a billion each from a complete sale and accept a much lower amount paid over a long period of time instead?

Fair play if they do.

And what assumption are you operating under?

Originally Posted by dunk

They’re seeking investment in the club. The club itself needs money, they’ve burned through the cash, can’t take dividends, revenue is on the slide and it’s an expensive beast to run.. The bulk of the siblings want to cash out.

Apparently there are 6 siblings, Assuming the 69% is somewhere near evenly split, 4 just want out by all accounts. 2 want to stay. They reckon it’s worth £6bn or thereabouts.In order for Avram and Joel to be rid of their siblings they’d need about £4bn, as I doubt they’d be prepared to let it go for cheap.

They don’t want to give any power away, so they don’t want the siblings to be bought out by a third party. They could find financing/a backer to finance them in buying out the others to give themselves the full 69% of the holding and then do a share issuing for 18% to leave them with a controlling interest. You’d have to doubt they’re going to cover the cost of the buyout via share-issuing (non voting obvs) 18% of the club. And they can’t offer more for fear of inviting a takeover by someone buying up all the shares that they have issued.

Snipped to save pace.
Joel - 19.11%
Darcie - 18.15%
Bryan - 17.23%
Avram - 14.38&
Kevin - 13.77%
Edward - 12.99%
Woowar - 0.05%

I understand it's Joel and Avram who want to keep going.
Given the voting proportion between the two grades of shares, they need to retain about 55% of these shares. In theory, the two of them could acquire the holdings of Kevin and Edward and obtain full control of the club between them (and could feasibly not hold any of the lower class shares), leaving Darcie and Bryan stranded. (Given poppa Malc sued his own sister, you couldn't put anything past this lot).

Originally Posted by Drexl

And what assumption are you operating under?

They’re greedy bastards.

Originally Posted by dunk

They’re greedy bastards.

read your own comments in this thread, and than get back to me

I'll wait...

I think Joel and Avram want to buy out their siblings and continue. But, I think the Qataris will up their bid enough that they can’t afford to stay in. Based on what Chelsea went for, I think United will wind up around £6-6.5B. The worldwide fan base for United dwarfs Chelsea which means the ability to commoditize that fandom is orders of magnitude greater.

Originally Posted by 92ToBury

Snipped to save pace.
Joel - 19.11%
Darcie - 18.15%
Bryan - 17.23%
Avram - 14.38&
Kevin - 13.77%
Edward - 12.99%
Woowar - 0.05%

I understand it's Joel and Avram who want to keep going.
Given the voting proportion between the two grades of shares, they need to retain about 55% of these shares. In theory, the two of them could acquire the holdings of Kevin and Edward and obtain full control of the club between them (and could feasibly not hold any of the lower class shares), leaving Darcie and Bryan stranded. (Given poppa Malc sued his own sister, you couldn't put anything past this lot).

If those 4 want a full sale and their full share value as they see it, you’d think the other 2 are struggling, really.

Originally Posted by Drexl

read your own comments in this thread, and than get back to me

I'll wait...

Obvs the 2 wanting to stay are, the other 4 want their cash, and the full amount at their valuation, now. Which is hopefully too rich for the other 2’s blood.

Originally Posted by dunk

If those 4 want a full sale and they’re full share value as they see it, you’d think the other 2 are struggling, really.



Obvs the 2 wanting to stay are, the other 4 want their cash, and the full amount at their valuation, now. Which is hopefully too rich for the other 2’s blood.

Definitely. If the four of them all sell to the same Qatari entity, it similarly leaves Avram and Joel high and dry. Not sure what the shareholding rules are in the USA (compared to the forced purchase of shares that the Glazers made to acquire us in the first place as a UK plc) - any of our American Reds know?