Antony

Originally Posted by ErikvanHaaksbergen

Can't whine about having no money to spend then say the amount we pay for players has no bearing on expectations. Until Qataris are here throwing notes all over the shop, spend needs to bring value if club is to return to very top. So yes, fee does bring expectation (esp if that apportioning of spend limits investment into other key positions -- see: CF); until money is no object, it still needs to be spent well, and its reasonable to expect top-of-the-bracket 80 mil position players to perform equivalent to their peers (otherwise recruitment need to be looking elsewhere). Obviously achieved that with some coming in .. Antony has way to go still to achieve that with consistency obviously, hopefully 2nd season he pushes on there, some good signs again he's finding top form in recent games

I think that’s a different argument though. If the club is spending big and getting its targets, then we’re right to have expectations…. But that’s not the same as how a fee affects where Antony should be in his development.

I have no expectations of Harry Maguire because he’s shit. The fact he cost £80m doesn’t change that. It just disturbs me.

Originally Posted by Dr Stranger

I think that’s a different argument though. If the club is spending big and getting its targets, then we’re right to have expectations…. But that’s not the same as how a fee affects where Antony should be in his development.

I have no expectations of Harry Maguire because he’s shit. The fact he cost £80m doesn’t change that. It just disturbs me.

Not quite sure what mental gymnastics is going on here. If you buy the most expensive player in the world then there will be expectations about how he performs, what he delivers and how quickly.

Originally Posted by Hyman_Roth

Not quite sure what mental gymnastics is going on here. If you buy the most expensive player in the world then there will be expectations about how he performs, what he delivers and how quickly.

It depends on why he was the most expensive player in the world. If it’s because he’s clearly the best player and worthy of such a fee, then yeah. If it’s some ridiculous deadline day fee, then judging them as the the best player in the world because that’s what their fee suggests is probably unwise.

A fee is reflective of a standard of player of course, but they also get massively inflated and don’t reflect anything other than what was required to get them.

In the case of Antony, we overpaid. Everyone knows that. That reflects on United and Ajax more than it does him. I think we’ll have a better time assessing him on his ability and how he’s adapting to the team and the league rather than an inflated number.

I always find it a reductive position to take.

So you’re divorcing the two issues when it’s convenient to do so and as and when you chose.

Up to you but I suspect you might be beating a lone drum on this one.

The bottom line is that expectation and the level of fee go hand in hand. And they always have done. Forever.

And not everyone off here thinks we overpaid for Antony. Quite the opposite. If he continues to perform like he did yesterday then his fee will quickly become irrelevant. Maguire’s fee is still talked about because he’s still bang average and there are umpteen better defenders than him that cost a fraction of what he cost.

There’s obviously some correlation between what you pay and what you expect. At the same time, it’s patently ridiculous to expect a player to be performing a certain amount better, because the negotiating team did a bad job and paid x amount more than they should.

And if you take it to it’s extreme, do we expect less of Rashford for example on the pitch because we didn’t pay a fee for him?

The fee comes into the conversation surrounding a player, but to focus on it as much as some people do is reductive like the Dr says, in my opinion anyway.

Thanks Ethers, was just about to write the same thing. But less eloquently. Dr is not on his own, I understand his point completely.

Originally Posted by Hyman_Roth

So you’re divorcing the two issues when it’s convenient to do so and as and when you chose.

Up to you but I suspect you might be beating a lone drum on this one.

The bottom line is that expectation and the level of fee go hand in hand. And they always have done. Forever.

And not everyone off here thinks we overpaid for Antony. Quite the opposite. If he continues to perform like he did yesterday then his fee will quickly become irrelevant. Maguire’s fee is still talked about because he’s still bang average and there are umpteen better defenders than him that cost a fraction of what he cost.

Not divorcing the two entirely. As I said in my last post: a fee can be representative of a standard, but it can also be hugely warped and a reflection of the clubs involved in the negotiation. And once it’s done, it’s entirely unhelpful when you’re then assessing the player.

Your Maguire and Antony arguments don’t support your position at all

Basically what Ethers just said.

If we bought Rashers now then he would cost us £120m I’m guessing and at that point, there would be fairly sizeable expectations based on his fee. As it is, there’s sizeable expectations on his shoulders already because of what he costs this club in wages and the fact that he’s our main striker.

I agree it shouldn’t be our entire focus but fees and wages can’t be ignored.

Originally Posted by Dr Stranger

Your Maguire and Antony arguments don’t support your position at all

.

Why?

He’s a Nani not a Ronaldo and there’s nothing wrong with that.

He has done well in his first season all things considered BUT - and it’s a big BUTT - he has a long way to go.

I’m also not convinced by his face. Something of the rat about him. Looks like he’d stab you in a heartbeat.

Originally Posted by My Name is Heath

He’s a Nani not a Ronaldo and there’s nothing wrong with that.

He has done well in his first season all things considered BUT - and it’s a big BUTT - he has a long way to go.

I’m also not convinced by his face. Something of the rat about him. Looks like he’d stab you in a heartbeat.

Once the acne clears up he will be a top 5 winger easy. It’s holding him back

He's been a lot better last few weeks, but jury still out on him for me, especially looking at his performances in the PL.

One of the big challenges for 10HAG is getting more creativity and goals into this side. In terms of creating chances, there's only really Bruno and Eriksen who excel / at a level you'd expect for a club who want to challenge.

Originally Posted by Hyman_Roth

If we bought Rashers now then he would cost us £120m I’m guessing and at that point, there would be fairly sizeable expectations based on his fee. As it is, there’s sizeable expectations on his shoulders already because of what he costs this club in wages and the fact that he’s our main striker.

I agree it shouldn’t be our entire focus but fees and wages can’t be ignored.



Why?

Because you’re asserting that Antony’s fee will be irrelevant if he continues to perform and that Maguire’s isn’t becomes he doesn’t perform.

Have I understood that correctly?

If so, then the value is determined by subsequent performance and that affects the perception of the fee (alongside what the clubs were willing to negotiate).

That is how it should be. That’s what I’m saying we’re not doing here with Antony. We’re ‘front loading’ the value based on the fee rather than what he’s actually doing.

Player performance - value - fee (right or wrong)

Not

Fee - player performance - value

The former is now Antony will be ‘worth’ £80m or justify being an £80m winger. That value isn’t reflected in six months.

Harry Maguire cost more than Virgil Van Dijk. At no point have I ever had any expectation for him to be better because he simply isn’t. That’s just what we paid for him. I would judge the club, despair at why we got him, lament the expense, but expecting him to do things he can’t do based on a number would be daft. We shouldn’t still have high expectations of him.

I never understand why people are so quick to say x player isn’t worth their price. We won’t know that until further down the line.

Was great yesterday. Even shot with his right

Erik referenced him using his right foot more. It's not even like he's bad with it. Will be a huge player for us.

Why are we talking about Harry Maguire?

Originally Posted by Dr Stranger

Because you’re asserting that Antony’s fee will be irrelevant if he continues to perform and that Maguire’s isn’t becomes he doesn’t perform.

Have I understood that correctly?

If so, then the value is determined by subsequent performance and that affects the perception of the fee (alongside what the clubs were willing to negotiate).

That is how it should be. That’s what I’m saying we’re not doing here with Antony. We’re ‘front loading’ the value based on the fee rather than what he’s actually doing.

Player performance - value - fee (right or wrong)

Not

Fee - player performance - value

The former is now Antony will be ‘worth’ £80m or justify being an £80m winger. That value isn’t reflected in six months.

Harry Maguire cost more than Virgil Van Dijk. At no point have I ever had any expectation for him to be better because he simply isn’t. That’s just what we paid for him. I would judge the club, despair at why we got him, lament the expense, but expecting him to do things he can’t do based on a number would be daft. We shouldn’t still have high expectations of him.

I never understand why people are so quick to say x player isn’t worth their price. We won’t know that until further down the line.

Not irrelevant - his fee just wouldn’t be the focus of the assessment. If Antony consistently plays well then he will be playing at a level that justifies the price paid for him. I don’t disagree that it’s too early to properly judge him. Is that your point? Are you basically saying that it’s too soon to judge whether Antony’s fee is justified or not? Because I’m pretty sure people have weighed into saying that the fee paid is irrelevant because we’ve overpaid.

Ultimately, he will be judged on how well he performs and whether his cost is justified.

(Incidentally, I think my initial assessment of him is proving to be incorrect.)

Originally Posted by Hyman_Roth

Not irrelevant - his fee just wouldn’t be the focus of the assessment. If Antony consistently plays well then he will be playing at a level that justifies the price paid for him. I don’t disagree that it’s too early to properly judge him. Is that your point? Are you basically saying that it’s too soon to judge whether Antony’s fee is justified or not? Because I’m pretty sure people have weighed into saying that the fee paid is irrelevant because we’ve overpaid.

Ultimately, he will be judged on how well he performs and whether his cost is justified.

(Incidentally, I think my initial assessment of him is proving to be incorrect.)

I think we’re coming close to something like a consensus, yes.

Bringing it back to yesterday, there seemed to be far more of a willingness to go on the outside. Even if he just does it every now and again to avoid being predictable. No issue with him having a devastating party piece, but planting that seed of doubt into full backs will allow him to do it more effectively.

Originally Posted by Hyman_Roth

The bottom line is that expectation and the level of fee go hand in hand. And they always have done. Forever.

.

Not necessarily true, otherwise you'd have zero expectations of free signings like Eriksen.

Also, was your expectation of Fellaini to have a similar impact as van Persie who was purchased the year before at a similar fee?

The fee paid for someone can be irrelevant at times as you can have the likes of Woodward overpaying for players.

Originally Posted by System Error

Not necessarily true, otherwise you'd have zero expectations of free signings like Eriksen.

Also, was your expectation of Fellaini to have a similar impact as van Persie who was purchased the year before at a similar fee?

The fee paid for someone can be irrelevant at times as you can have the likes of Woodward overpaying for players.

Players with large fees will carry with them a certain level of expectation. That isn’t to say players who arrive on frees carry no expectations. Anyone who plays for the club carry’s a level of expectation.

But I think you’re saying that the fee paid for a player has zero impact on the expectation level. And that my son is just horseshit.

At £80 m, there is an expectation on Antony. The timing for that assessment is debatable but I agree that now is perhaps too soon ( even if you chose now, the assessment would be a decent one.)

Originally Posted by Hyman_Roth

Players with large fees will carry with them a certain level of expectation. That isn’t to say players who arrive on frees carry no expectations. Anyone who plays for the club carry’s a level of expectation.

But I think you’re saying that the fee paid for a player has zero impact on the expectation level. And that my son is just horseshit.

At £80 m, there is an expectation on Antony. The timing for that assessment is debatable but I agree that now is perhaps too soon ( even if you chose now, the assessment would be a decent one.)

You thought wrong in what thought I was saying, despite it being very clear in black and white as to what I said.
Where did I say that fee's have zero impact on expectations?

It's all dependant on each individual signing, for example....no-one had an expectation that Lukaku was going to be a world beater, despite his fee, due to people having already based an opinion on him from seeing him play many league games. So in this scenario, it would be stupid of someone to expect more from a player, simply because a large fee has been paid.

Maybe with unknown players, people can be forgiven for linking value to expectations.

I'm afraid you're wrong.

Originally Posted by Dr Stranger

It depends on why he was the most expensive player in the world. If it’s because he’s clearly the best player and worthy of such a fee, then yeah. If it’s some ridiculous deadline day fee, then judging them as the the best player in the world because that’s what their fee suggests is probably unwise.

A fee is reflective of a standard of player of course, but they also get massively inflated and don’t reflect anything other than what was required to get them.

In the case of Antony, we overpaid. Everyone knows that. That reflects on United and Ajax more than it does him. I think we’ll have a better time assessing him on his ability and how he’s adapting to the team and the league rather than an inflated number.

I always find it a reductive position to take.

That's a great way of looking at in all honesty & genrely speaking I have been reasonably impresed with, Anthony most of the time, but I just wish he would learn to use his right foot just as much as his left, but then again we could say that about the vast majority of players , that have ever kicked a ball!