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Unread 19-06-2022, 09:19 PM
Zorg
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyman_Roth
Iíve always thought FOM was a problem. Mainly a political one and mainly because we chose not to apply the choking mechanisms we had available. I do wish Cameron had secured more of a concession from the EU when he went over - a limitation on numbers etc. to come away empty handed was a bit of a political disaster.

But itís a problem largely promoted by the daily Mail and it wonít go away just becuase weíve left. Suspect thereíll be just more darker skin colours coming our way. But in any case, whatever the issue was, it was minuscule compared to the downside of not being in the eu.
Not this again.
 
Unread 19-06-2022, 09:33 PM
jem
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zorg
Not this again.
lol.
 
Unread 19-06-2022, 09:36 PM
tatty
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zorg
Not this again.
lol.
 
Unread 19-06-2022, 09:40 PM
Switching Off
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jem
lol.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tatty
lol.
Cannon and Ball over here.
 
Unread 19-06-2022, 09:42 PM
jem
 
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rock on, tatty.
 
Unread 19-06-2022, 09:50 PM
Hyman_Roth
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zorg
Not this again.
Well itís a big reason, if not the reason, why we are now out of the eu. So whether you think it was justified or not, unrealistic, unnecessary or whatever, it was used by the express/mail/jem tatty et al as the political petrol that got thrown onto the flames.

My guess is that the eu didnít feel justified in providing a concession to the uk that they would have to provide to everyone else and politically gambled that they didnít need to anyway. I think they were wrong.
 
Unread 19-06-2022, 10:11 PM
jem
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyman_Roth
My guess is that the eu didnít feel justified in providing a concession to the uk that they would have to provide to everyone else
his head is going to explode. stand back.
 
Unread 19-06-2022, 10:21 PM
Hyman_Roth
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jem
his head is going to explode. stand back.
Just to be clear, I think it was ridiculous to have to do anything at all - but this was the right wing of this country, decades of anti eu press, loads of built up resentment arising from domestic issues blamed on the eu etc etc.

All if it was wrong but sometimes you have to find a way of putting out fires started deliberately.
 
Unread 19-06-2022, 10:38 PM
jem
 
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zorg will not like your comment above one little bit.
 
Unread 19-06-2022, 10:55 PM
Zorg
 
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyman_Roth
Well itís a big reason, if not the reason, why we are now out of the eu. So whether you think it was justified or not, unrealistic, unnecessary or whatever, it was used by the express/mail/jem tatty et al as the political petrol that got thrown onto the flames.

My guess is that the eu didnít feel justified in providing a concession to the uk that they would have to provide to everyone else and politically gambled that they didnít need to anyway. I think they were wrong.
We've been through all this before. He didn't come away empty-handed.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics...endum-35622105

Quote:
Mr Cameron has secured a commitment to exempt Britain from "ever closer union" to be written into the treaties. He has also negotiated the inclusion of a "red-card" mechanism, a new power. If 55% of national parliaments agree, they could effectively block or veto a commission proposal.
Treaty change is a big deal.

On in-work benefits and child benefit:

Quote:
Mr Cameron had to compromise on this aspect of the deal in the face of strong opposition from Poland and three other central European countries. He got the four-year "emergency brake" on in-work benefits he had set such store by - but new arrivals will have their tax credits phased in over four years. The brake will be in place for a maximum of seven years, rather than the 13 years Mr Cameron is thought to have wanted - but the EU has agreed it would be "justified" to trigger it without delay after the referendum if the UK votes to stay in the EU.

The UK government has already reached an agreement on out-of-work benefits. Newly arrived EU migrants are banned from claiming jobseeker's allowance for three months. If they have not found a job within six months they will be required to leave
Beyond that, it was simply more British exceptionalism - we'll promise things in our manifesto, and then we'll go to Brussels and tell them what they're going to give us.

But as seen from the opposition from Poland and others, that's not how it works. You're in a bloc of 28 countries, you don't always get what you want. And you certainly don't get to rock up and dictate. It's not 'politically gambling', it's just fundamentally how the organisation works. You can be a member and follow the rules, or not be a member. If you don't like the rules, you can lobby for change, but all countries are equal, and they might not want to change them, and might object. In which case, the organisation is duty-bound to take their interests into account as well.

And as we've discussed before, the crucial point is that the UK didn't use the tools already at its disposal, tools other EU countries did use. Under Blair it turned down a cap on immigration from new members Bulgaria and Romania which France and Germany didn't. But that horse had long bolted.

Aside from that it was perfectly possible to imitate countries like Belgium and Denmark, which use the rules on FoM to the maximum. E.g. if you want to stay in Belgium for longer than 90 days, you have to register with the town hall, get a residence permit, let them take and store your fingerprints, show a rental agreement, proof of health insurance and proof of employment, and a police officer will come round to check on you. All legal under EU law. I gather it's similar in Denmark. To my knowledge, the UK has nothing like this.

So he didn't come away with everything he wanted, but then, with 27 other members, that's the deal.
 
Unread 19-06-2022, 11:03 PM
tatty
 
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The EU had every right to apply itís rules just as the UK had the right to decide not to be part of the project.

I wish the EU well and have no animosity, but I do wish it, and itís supporters, would just crack on with ever closer union and stop banging on about Brexit.

Itís over, done, history, never to be reversed.
 
Unread 19-06-2022, 11:03 PM
jem
 
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you were warned, keef.
 
Unread 20-06-2022, 06:29 AM
Hyman_Roth
 
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Thanks Zorgers and I get that (and stuff I didnít know too).

But I still thinks itís a flawed policy. Itís relevant because Labour will have to deal with this and the tories are already trying to present starmer as wanting to go back to FOM. Why are they drawing the battle line there again? Because itís the strongest political card they can play.

Not sure what the answer is but the concept of unlimited immigration is politically stupid tbph. It would have been relatively easy for the eu to agree an eu wide migration policy in which quotas and limits were set over a planned period. A min level set centrally which countries had to allow and then a cap or open door policy depending whether domestically/politically each country wanted to encourage or discourage migration. This would allow some flexing of migration policy as political/economic/social events developed over decades - not simply an inflexible open door policy forever.

All the major political and economic powers (Germany, France, Uk) have had huge domestic political pressure because of it.

It was a bit daft to ignore it imv.
 
Unread 20-06-2022, 07:20 AM
Switching Off
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tatty
The EU had every right to apply itís rules just as the UK had the right to decide not to be part of the project.

I wish the EU well and have no animosity, but I do wish it, and itís supporters, would just crack on with ever closer union and stop banging on about Brexit.

Itís over, done, history, never to be reversed.
I suppose they have to, what with us reneging on agreements we signed etc.
 
Unread 20-06-2022, 07:25 AM
red red robbo
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tatty
The EU had every right to apply itís rules just as the UK had the right to decide not to be part of the project.

I wish the EU well and have no animosity, but I do wish it, and itís supporters, would just crack on with ever closer union and stop banging on about Brexit.

Itís over, done, history, never to be reversed.
Couple of points....

1) It's not done. The oven ready deal that was gong to draw a line under brexit once and for all was in fact still frozen and no one had bothered to read the coking instructions on the packet. There is still a long way to go until brexit it done.

2) Why is it never to be reversed? We weren't in the EU once, then we reversed that and we were in the EU, then we reversed that again and now we're not again. There is nothing to say that we can't reverse that situation again, that's what democracy is all about, the ability to change your mind.
 
Unread 20-06-2022, 01:21 PM
redhegemony
 
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Unread 20-06-2022, 01:31 PM
Switching Off
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redhegemony
All the airlines are saying it's because of Brexit but Simon Clarke says it isnt. It's hard to know who to believe.
 
Unread 20-06-2022, 01:34 PM
tatty
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redhegemony
Brexit is affecting their ability to recruit paying the wages they have in mind.

Big business is going to have to learn to pay the going rate instead of kicking and screaming demanding the government turn the taps of unlimited labour back on again.
 
Unread 20-06-2022, 01:36 PM
red red robbo
 
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tatty
Brexit is affecting their ability to recruit paying the wages they have in mind.

Big business is going to have to learn to pay the going rate instead of kicking and screaming demanding the government turn the taps of unlimited labour back on again.
Maybe it's nothing to do with wages but to do with the skill set? Maybe they want experienced people who can get to work immediately and there aren't enough of them in the UK.
 
Unread 20-06-2022, 01:40 PM
redhegemony
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by red red robbo
Maybe it's nothing to do with wages but to do with the skill set? Maybe they want experienced people who can get to work immediately and there aren't enough of them in the UK.
They've all gone turnip picking...
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