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Unread 20-01-2010, 02:43 PM
Lok
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by believe
there was one reply on there that simply said

"if we get 500,000 fans to invest £2000 each we can get the billion to get the glazers out!!"
That's £#%&!ing genius. I'll start it. If everyone wants to paypal me the monies ([email protected]), I can get this going asap.
 
Unread 20-01-2010, 02:46 PM
believe
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lok
That's £#%&!ing genius. I'll start it. If everyone wants to paypal me the monies ([email protected]), I can get this going asap.
yhpm. 500,000 ffs
 
Unread 20-01-2010, 02:50 PM
Lok
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by believe
yhpm. 500,000 ffs
Unless there's an almighty collapse, we'll never be able to buy the club. It was tried years ago when the club was worth a tenth of what it is now and it didn't happen.

We'll just have to spread our cheeks to an arab/asian businessman and hope he's not too rough with us.
 
Unread 20-01-2010, 02:53 PM
That Boy Ronaldo!
 
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Dont you think that the Supporters Clubs should come out and ask all United fans to request the FA to get involved?

Having the biggest club in England Supporters "not backing the World Cup Bid" (They certainly wont like that) refusing to back the bid and having a anti-world cup campaign until the FA/Government get involved might work and actually help the club out because currently we dont have any long term vision other than debt.

Worth a shout?

It would also be a good idea to get those horrible bastards involved, because there in a situation like us where investors have gotten into our clubs and are slowly destorying two of the biggest names in world football.
 
Unread 20-01-2010, 02:55 PM
Lok
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by That Boy Ronaldo!
Dont you think that the Supporters Clubs should come out and ask all United fans to request the FA to get involved?

Having the biggest club in England Supporters "not backing the World Cup Bid" (They certainly wont like that) refusing to back the bid and having a anti-world cup campaign until the FA/Government get involved might work?

Worth a shout?
In all seriousness, what can the FA do? They're powerless.
 
Unread 20-01-2010, 02:56 PM
believe
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lok
In all seriousness, what can the FA do? They're powerless.
they certainly were when we asked them last time.
 
Unread 20-01-2010, 02:57 PM
Lok
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by believe
they certainly were when we asked them last time.
Agreed. If they were to stop the Glazers, it had to happen before they took over. They were toothless then so there's no chance they'll grow a pair and do something now. Even if they wanted to there's pretty much nothing they can do.
 
Unread 20-01-2010, 02:59 PM
That Boy Ronaldo!
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lok
In all seriousness, what can the FA do? They're powerless.
Maybe but the fact is they have ties in with the government and the simple fact is we need what ever exposure and help we can get.

If there's a way to connect both clubs and have a goal to improve both clubs finances then we might have a campaign on our hands, two of the biggest clubs world wide not backing the bid wont look good will it?
 
Unread 20-01-2010, 03:02 PM
Lok
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by That Boy Ronaldo!
Maybe but the fact is they have ties in with the government and the simple fact is we need what ever exposure and help we can get.

If there's a way to connect both clubs and have a goal to improve both clubs finances then we might have a campaign on our hands, two of the biggest clubs world wide not backing the bid wont look good will it?
But what can the government do? It might sound pessimistic but they can't do anything. The Glazers broke no laws when they took us over. For the government/FA can't shift the goalposts now, there's just too much money involved.

Unfortunately it's just a matter of waiting for them to £#%&! off. Anything (protests, not a penny etc...) that can be done in the meantime can only bring that day forward.
 
Unread 20-01-2010, 03:04 PM
carlosartorial
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sparky***
I fully expect the FA to do something about foreign ownership....the second it starts to benefit us in any way.

If we were in the same situation as our #@&%!ed blue neighbours, with an arab giving us untold bzillions to spend - you can bet your arse the Monday morning after it happened, first on the agenda for the FA, The premier league and Jeff Winter would be how to stop Manchester United from ruining football.
 
Unread 20-01-2010, 03:07 PM
forwardirektion
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redloner
Yes. In other news, the PIK debt interest rate is increasing from 14.25%pa to 16.25%pa from August. Wondered why the Glazers seemed so anxious to repay it. Maybe they're under pressure to do so...?
So let me get this straight. The £500m bond issue if succesful will lower the PIK (£214m from 16% to approx 9%) The other £286m will pay off that much of the debt from the other loans leaving £215m as it was to begin with.

What sort of interest is paid on the other loans, have they just got rid of the PIK rate but the increase on the other loans caused by the bond issue will nulify the the lowere PIK rate?
What do sort of penalties do early pay offs give?

They've just made it so we're still as £#%&!ed as we've always been but they can stay in charge and rape the club for another 5 years haven't they?
 
Unread 20-01-2010, 03:12 PM
That Boy Ronaldo!
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lok
But what can the government do? It might sound pessimistic but they can't do anything. The Glazers broke no laws when they took us over. For the government/FA can't shift the goalposts now, there's just too much money involved.

Unfortunately it's just a matter of waiting for them to £#%&! off. Anything (protests, not a penny etc...) that can be done in the meantime can only bring that day forward.
Very true but using the "Back the Bid" campaign is a perfect way to exposure to ALL Football supporters who are worried about there clubs finances and ride on the back of national coverage.

Rather than worry about a expensive world cup they should be worried about there clubs they follow, cause the way the game is going over here there will be no clubs left to follow.

A simple "Don't back the bid" campaign would be a good idea, why bother backing a bid when the country's clubs are in a mess and in need of attention, there are millions of supporters who are unhappy regarding there clubs financial situation using them to support our bid and expose there's might bring on a change and get rid of some investors.
 
Unread 20-01-2010, 03:13 PM
Surfers do Charlie
 
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there was a (vaguely) interesting letter on one of the Guardian blogs this morning:

Quote:
One of the things that's interesting about all this uproar is the perception that football clubs should be in some way immune to normal business behaviour. Just to get it straight, in a leveraged buyout, it is normal for the first priority of the bought out company to be to pay down the debt incurred in buying it. It would be a condition of the loans. And paying that debt would usually incur the liquidation of non core assets (eg a training complex) and cutting investment in new assets / R&D (eg new players) until the debt is under control. Cutting existing staff numbers and wages is usually part of it too.
I repeat, this is completely normal. I would very much recommend "Barbarians at the Gate" by Bryan Burrough - a great, and very readable book about the leveraged buyout of the vernerable RJR Nabisco if you really want to understand leveraged buyouts.
Now, you can argue that leveraged buyouts shouldn't be allowed for any business, and many have argued exactly that because they tend to make a lot of money for the buyers and sellers, but have a negative impact on almost everyone else (workers, community, the health of the business itself) but the fact is they are not only legal, but successful practioners of the buyout are the stars of the business world
The argument seems to be that different standards should apply for football clubs, and perhaps they should, but the fact is that by becoming PLCs successful premier league clubs gave up any right to be treated as community organisations, but became businesses like any other.
English football didn't have to go down that route. Clubs could have become membership owned clubs, membership owned multi sport clubs, they could have at least guaranteed a measure of control to supporter groups. But the directors of premier league clubs didn't do any of these things, they went for the money.
So now Manchester Utd is simply a tradeable asset, and the opinions of fans are about as relevant as the opinions of Curly Wurly lovers to the Kraft Cadbuty merger. I suppose there's a risk that those fans might boycott Curly Wurly but they probably won't, and Man Utd fans probably won't boycott the club either. And why should they? There will still be a team in red turning out on Saturdays. They'll probably still be pretty successful. Admittedly they may be playing at a stadium called something other than Old Trafford, but really so what?
If you want to be involved with a community club there are still plenty of them in the lower divisions (and one or two in the premier league) who would love your support. But Man Utd, Liverpool etc have long since ceased to be community clubs
And just to finish the rant, the idea that Alex Ferguson should in some way take responsibility for any of this is ridiculous. He just coaches the first team - that's all.
 
Unread 20-01-2010, 03:13 PM
Lok
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by forwardirektion
So let me get this straight. The £500m bond issue if succesful will lower the PIK (£214m from 16% to approx 9%) The other £286m will pay off that much of the debt from the other loans leaving £215m as it was to begin with.

What sort of interest is paid on the other loans, have they just got rid of the PIK rate but the increase on the other loans caused by the bond issue will nulify the the lowere PIK rate?
What do sort of penalties do early pay offs give?

They've just made it so we're still as £#%&!ed as we've always been but they can stay in charge and rape the club for another 5 years haven't they?
According to people far more in the know than myself, the bond issue can not be used to repay the PIK's.
 
Unread 20-01-2010, 03:15 PM
zzalsar3
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by El Chalten
Manchester Utd's parent company's overall debt has risen to £716.5 million pounds
Its much easier to get your head round it and keep the numbers in perspective if you simply picture a tight roll of 100 x £100 notes in bundled notes on each seat.

Edit: I have calculated that it would take approx 10000 pound coins to make a life size figure of a man. Therefore if you made 76000 coppery-zinc life-sized figures out of pound coins and arranged each one in each seat at OT then this example of art and sculpture on a huge scale would consist of enough cash to cover this debt.
 
Unread 20-01-2010, 03:21 PM
carlosartorial
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zzalsar3
Its much easier to get your head round it and keep the numbers in perspective if you simply picture a tight roll of 100 x £100 notes in bundled notes on each seat.

Edit: I have calculated that it would take approx 10000 pound coins to make a life size figure of a man. Therefore if you made 76000 coppery-zinc life-sized figures out of pound coins and arranged each one in each seat at OT then this example of art and sculpture on a huge scale would consist of enough cash to cover this debt.
 
Unread 20-01-2010, 03:29 PM
Zorg
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Surfers do Charlie
there was a (vaguely) interesting letter on one of the Guardian blogs this morning:
It's true what he or she says, but I'm getting sick of people saying 'ah, well, they're businesses, you see'. We KNOW for £#%&!'s sake. That's the problem. The route English football took after Spurs floated in the early eighties was and is the wrong one - it's led to clubs teetering on bankrupcy, a lack of true competition, elitism and sanitisation. These people think they're giving everyone a lesson, when in fact they're just stating things we knew years ago. It's like people who say 'united fans didn't complain when it was a Plc'. Erm, actually, we did - every single week the fanzines were packed with moans, gripes and complaints about modern football and the way it was going.
 
Unread 20-01-2010, 03:30 PM
Chorlton74
 
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sparky***
I fully expect the FA to do something about foreign ownership....the second it starts to benefit us in any way.

If we were in the same situation as our #@&%!ed blue neighbours, with an arab giving us untold bzillions to spend - you can bet your arse the Monday morning after it happened, first on the agenda for the FA, The premier league and Jeff Winter would be how to stop Manchester United from ruining football.
that happened in the mid 90's when it wasn't in the publics interest or footballs for Rupert Murdoch to buy us.

United are £#%&!ed.
 
Unread 20-01-2010, 03:46 PM
Surfers do Charlie
 
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zorg
It's true what he or she says, but I'm getting sick of people saying 'ah, well, they're businesses, you see'. We KNOW for £#%&!'s sake. That's the problem. The route English football took after Spurs floated in the early eighties was and is the wrong one - it's led to clubs teetering on bankrupcy, a lack of true competition, elitism and sanitisation. These people think they're giving everyone a lesson, when in fact they're just stating things we knew years ago. It's like people who say 'united fans didn't complain when it was a Plc'. Erm, actually, we did - every single week the fanzines were packed with moans, gripes and complaints about modern football and the way it was going.
Yeah, but I thought the interesting section was that in leveraged buyouts, it seems to be usual to do whatever is necessary to get the debt manageable first, before going on to build up the business/club again.
So that the sale of Carrington, deliberately underinvesting in players, cutting all expenditure and increasing income as much as possible, even the sale and leaseback of OT, all might be necessary, and even contingencies the Glazers have planned.
They will do absolutely whatever it takes to get the debt under control, and then will be able to run the club as a long-term money-maker.
I personally can't see a buyout happening in the forseeable future until all possible avenues of revenue raising have been explored - and there are some grim ones to comtemplate.
 
Unread 20-01-2010, 03:52 PM
Withers
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by forwardirektion
So let me get this straight. The £500m bond issue if succesful will lower the PIK (£214m from 16% to approx 9%) The other £286m will pay off that much of the debt from the other loans leaving £215m as it was to begin with.

What sort of interest is paid on the other loans, have they just got rid of the PIK rate but the increase on the other loans caused by the bond issue will nulify the the lowere PIK rate?
What do sort of penalties do early pay offs give?

They've just made it so we're still as £#%&!ed as we've always been but they can stay in charge and rape the club for another 5 years haven't they?
The bond can't pay the PIK's it just refinances the existing debt on the club of £500 million.

It doesn't even lower the interest, we paid £40 million approx on it before and we will pay approx £40 million on it after the bond is issued.

The reason they are doing it is the old debt has certain conditions tied into it such as the Glazers can't pay themselves a dividend. So the Glazers have said as soon as the bond is done they are taking a dividend of £70 million to pay off part of the PIK debt. The PIK debt isn't linked to the club it's their own personal debt.

In short the refinance doesn't help our cash flow one jot, it just allows the Glazers to nick the Ronaldo money to pay off their own debt.

Oh and they have arranged a £75 million overdraft so when we buy players in the summer it looks like we always had money to spend after all.

I'm sure if I have the wrong end of the stick redloner will let us know
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