Hillsborough inquiry

Originally Posted by My Name is Keith

It's not with the benefit of hindsight, I thought so at the time. It was really quite simple. There were still 1,000's of fans outside approaching 3pm with turnstiles unable to process enough people through prior to kick off. The fact that there were empty pens inside and 1000's outside is surely justification for delaying kick off.

An announcement to delay kick off by 10-15 mins would have immediately alleviated pressure on the turnstiles and avoided the police's inexplicable decision to open the £#%&!ing exit gates. What on earth they thought would happen when they did that is beyond me and why they didn't communicate that to officers at the front of the terraces who were still battoning fans from escaping is again, anyone's guess.

In short, it was fairly easily avoidable but each and every decision the police made was devastatingly wrong.

Yep. It isn't hindsight ffs, the police were well aware there'd been an accident on the motorway that caused a load of coaches to arrive late.

Originally Posted by My Name is Keith

In short, it was fairly easily avoidable but each and every decision the police made was devastatingly wrong.

Yep, but where do we go from there? Is it acceptable to say that these coppers made honest decisions that they thought were correct, but got it horribly wrong? Or is it a case that somebody, somewhere, is guilty of gross negligence, and manslaughter? Because from what i've read it just reads like massive incompetence, partially, but not fully justified by the reputation of all football fans at the time, and specifically with the reputation, and (then) recent behaviour of Liverpool fans. Which to me means that no one person is responsible or needs to be held to account. If that's the case, they'll never £#%&!ing shut up about the whole thing.

Originally Posted by Switching Off

Yep, but where do we go from there? Is it acceptable to say that these coppers made honest decisions that they thought were correct, but got it horribly wrong? Or is it a case that somebody, somewhere, is guilty of gross negligence, and manslaughter? Because from what i've read it just reads like massive incompetence, partially, but not fully justified by the reputation of all football fans at the time, and specifically with the reputation, and (then) recent behaviour of Liverpool fans. Which to me means that no one person is responsible or needs to be held to account. If that's the case, they'll never £#%&!ing shut up about the whole thing.

My point is that regardless of the behaviour of fans, Liverpool or just general at that time, this disaster was easily avoided.

If you're suggesting that heightened anxiety amongst police officers, brought about by years of hooliganism, was sufficient to force the police into making inexplicably bad decisions then football matches and large crowds should have been banned from ever taking place.

I'm was never that arsed about the police being held culpable until I found out just how fraudulent and duplicitous they had had been with the fabrication and hiding of evidence etc. that's a far less nebulous crime than simple incompetence.

Throw the book at them I say.

Originally Posted by My Name is Keith

My point is that regardless of the behaviour of fans, Liverpool or just general at that time, this disaster was easily avoided.

If you're suggesting that heightened anxiety amongst police officers, brought about by years of hooliganism, was sufficient to force the police into making inexplicably bad decisions then football matches and large crowds should have been banned from ever taking place.

I'm was never that arsed about the police being held culpable until I found out just how fraudulent and duplicitous they had had been with the fabrication and hiding of evidence etc. that's a far less nebulous crime than simple incompetence.

Throw the book at them I say.

I get your point Mnikers, I just don't see how they are going to get their justice. The event and the subsequent cover up are two different things, but they seem intent on letting the cover up become the issue to deflect from the event, where they probably see themselves as being vulnerable to a degree of blame.

The best they can hope for is one or two higher ups taking the blame for the cover up and the disaster itself being relegated to a secondary concern. Either way I don't see this ever coming to a satisfactory conclusion for anyone.

Originally Posted by Switching Off

I get your point Mnikers, I just don't see how they are going to get their justice. The event and the subsequent cover up are two different things, but they seem intent on letting the cover up become the issue to deflect from the event, where they probably see themselves as being vulnerable to a degree of blame.

The best they can hope for is one or two higher ups taking the blame for the cover up and the disaster itself being relegated to a secondary concern. Either way I don't see this ever coming to a satisfactory conclusion for anyone.

Don't disagree and don't get me wrong, I'm like everyone else on here when it comes to the my dislike of the scousers perpetually whining on about the whole thing.

But I do force myself to try and see it from the families perspective. you might well feel differently too if you lost a son or a brother in wholly avoidable circumstances and the best way you can find of filling that void is to attach yourself to a campaign that perpetuates their memory. We're sick to death of it but if it helps them cope then so £#%&!ing what? There but for the grace of god and all that.

Originally Posted by My Name is Keith

Don't disagree and don't get me wrong, I'm like everyone else on here when it comes to the my dislike of the scousers perpetually whining on about the whole thing.

But I do force myself to try and see it from the families perspective. you might well feel differently too if you lost a son or a brother in wholly avoidable circumstances and the best way you can find of filling that void is to attach yourself to a campaign that perpetuates their memory. We're sick to death of it but if it helps them cope then so £#%&!ing what? There but for the grace of god and all that.

I agree with all of this. It's just that they don't seem to understand where to stop. It's not their place to tell other people they shouldn't be allowed to to stand at football matches, for example.

Originally Posted by Zorg

I agree with all of this. It's just that they don't seem to understand where to stop. It's not their place to tell other people they shouldn't be allowed to to stand at football matches, for example.

Making Chelsea play a cup semi final at 5.30 on a Sunday, when they had Barcelona in a Champions League semi final on a Tuesday was an absolute joke

Originally Posted by Zorg

I agree with all of this. It's just that they don't seem to understand where to stop. It's not their place to tell other people they shouldn't be allowed to to stand at football matches, for example.

Agree 100%. Scousers overdo anything and everything to the point that everyone else resents them and the campaign they stand for.

Basically, they're a bit thick, can only deal in primary emotions and have no subtlety or self awareness. Awful people.

Originally Posted by armchair

imo they want none of those things, what they want is an never ending pity party

Originally Posted by Zorg

I agree with all of this. It's just that they don't seem to understand where to stop. It's not their place to tell other people they shouldn't be allowed to to stand at football matches, for example.

Every time they get a decision that favours their fight, they change what the fight is for. It will never end.

on brighter news Ive officially been excused Jury duty for the formal enquiry

Originally Posted by Child of Darkness

on brighter news Ive officially been excused Jury duty for the formal enquiry

As long as Pop hasn't it's all good

Originally Posted by Mr Castro

As long as Pop hasn't it's all good

Passing around Griefmania flyers.

I have faith in Pop. I reckon if he put his mind to it every he could get every 'survivor' sent down.

Originally Posted by My Name is Keith

It's not with the benefit of hindsight, I thought so at the time. It was really quite simple. There were still 1,000's of fans outside approaching 3pm with turnstiles unable to process enough people through prior to kick off. The fact that there were empty pens inside and 1000's outside is surely justification for delaying kick off.

An announcement to delay kick off by 10-15 mins would have immediately alleviated pressure on the turnstiles and avoided the police's inexplicable decision to open the £#%&!ing exit gates. What on earth they thought would happen when they did that is beyond me and why they didn't communicate that to officers at the front of the terraces who were still battoning fans from escaping is again, anyone's guess.

In short, it was fairly easily avoidable but each and every decision the police made was devastatingly wrong.

if you knew that the paddock's either side were empty and that what was about to happen was going to be so horrific why didn't you tell anyone?

i'm guessing it's because you didn't, you just thought it was a really bad crowd scene...

whatever anyway, the reality is that what happened outside the ground is what led to what happened inside the ground and imo, and based on everything i've read and seen, and especially from eye-witness accounts, that's where the crush first became dangerous. and the reason it couldn't be released outside was because they were football supporters fuelled with drink in someone else's town and they could not be trusted. they were squashing each other at the turnstiles ffs.

the poor policing on the other side of the gate was caused in no small part by the vermin reputation leading to the focus being on stopping them trying to take forest's end. if you'd told the police that the vermin were about to start trampling each other to death i imagine they would have reluctantly brought in a bigger police presence for the game...

opening the gates wasn't a new thing - i'd been at other grounds where that had happened. difference there was the shear numbers involved and the fact that it was a grave emergency situation. but the mood amongst fans was always about how great it was that hundreds had jibbed in and how packed the stands were. eventually it caught up on them and it just happened to be that lot at that match.

Originally Posted by Tumescent Throb

if you knew that the paddock's either side were empty and that what was about to happen was going to be so horrific why didn't you tell anyone?

possibly cos he didnt work for either SWFC as a steward or SY police

i'm guessing it's because you didn't, you just thought it was a really bad crowd scene...

whatever anyway, the reality is that what happened outside the ground is what led to what happened inside the ground and imo, and based on everything i've read and seen, and especially from eye-witness accounts, that's where the crush first became dangerous. and the reason it couldn't be released outside was because they were football supporters fuelled with drink in someone else's town and they could not be trusted. they were squashing each other at the turnstiles ffs.

the poor policing on the other side of the gate was caused in no small part by the vermin reputation leading to the focus being on stopping them trying to take forest's end. if you'd told the police that the vermin were about to start trampling each other to death i imagine they would have reluctantly brought in a bigger police presence for the game...

opening the gates wasn't a new thing - i'd been at other grounds where that had happened. difference there was the shear numbers involved and the fact that it was a grave emergency situation. but the mood amongst fans was always about how great it was that hundreds had jibbed in and how packed the stands were. eventually it caught up on them and it just happened to be that lot at that match.

#@&%!.

Originally Posted by Tumescent Throb

if you knew that the paddock's either side were empty and that what was about to happen was going to be so horrific why didn't you tell anyone?

i'm guessing it's because you didn't, you just thought it was a really bad crowd scene...

whatever anyway, the reality is that what happened outside the ground is what led to what happened inside the ground and imo, and based on everything i've read and seen, and especially from eye-witness accounts, that's where the crush first became dangerous. and the reason it couldn't be released outside was because they were football supporters fuelled with drink in someone else's town and they could not be trusted. they were squashing each other at the turnstiles ffs.

the poor policing on the other side of the gate was caused in no small part by the vermin reputation leading to the focus being on stopping them trying to take forest's end. if you'd told the police that the vermin were about to start trampling each other to death i imagine they would have reluctantly brought in a bigger police presence for the game...

opening the gates wasn't a new thing - i'd been at other grounds where that had happened. difference there was the shear numbers involved and the fact that it was a grave emergency situation. but the mood amongst fans was always about how great it was that hundreds had jibbed in and how packed the stands were. eventually it caught up on them and it just happened to be that lot at that match.

Jesus. Take your united specs off for a moment if you can.

The scene outside the turnstiles was a classic 'delay the kick off' situation. Thousands of fans, many of who were waving their tickets above their heads were desperate to get in before kick off. Too few turnstiles and two slow at getting people through.

The situation would have alleviated itself immediately if the kick off had been delayed 15 mins. You can try your hardest to make it more complicated than that but it really isn't.

I couldn't see that there were empty paddocks but the police certainly could. They could also see that the central pens were being over subscribed which is why their decision to open the gates was so inexplicable.

At the time, loads of supporters around where I was were suggesting that the kick off would be delayed. It was the obvious thing to do. What no one could believe was that some huge £#%&! off exit gates would suddenly get opened up allowing 1,000's of fans to come in together.

Even if they were concerned that there would be a crush at the turnstiles, what on earth did they imagine would happen by allowing 1,000's in at once?

Originally Posted by Child of Darkness

#@&%!.

he could have rung 999 you dick

Originally Posted by My Name is Keith

Jesus. Take your united specs off for a moment if you can.

didn't read the rest

Originally Posted by Tumescent Throb

didn't read the rest

Frosty.

Death threats incoming.....

http://www.itv.com/news/granada/2014...iverpool-fans/

Uh oh spaghetti-O