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Unread 09-08-2020, 09:34 AM
Dr Stranger
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ryanMUFC
Yeah, definitely. It seems to happen with some players, they get a bit over appreciated towards the end of their career. Paul Scholes’s stock seemed to rise towards the end of his career, great player (better than Pirlo) but I’d think someone is a bit bias if they thought he was better than Zidane.
Yeah, players tend to get lumped together and history is kind to them.

He peaked around the time of Iniesta and Xavi, but was never quite as good as them.

Lovely player, but not quite that special level.

Zidane is just the best midfielder of the last 25 years.
 
Unread 09-08-2020, 09:37 AM
NedKelly
 
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Zidane and Scholes were different kinds of midfielder altogether though. I’d say they’re at the level where if you choose a favourite it’s purely subjective. There is a case to be made for both.

Calling Pirlo overrated the whole obsession with having the Dm sit back and dictate play from deep basically stems from Pirlo refining that role. Plenty of players can pass with great accuracy but I’m not sure many had the vision Pirlo did.
 
Unread 09-08-2020, 09:40 AM
Coracao
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Stranger
Yeah, players tend to get lumped together and history is kind to them.

He peaked around the time of Iniesta and Xavi, but was never quite as good as them.

Lovely player, but not quite that special level.

Zidane is just the best midfielder of the last 25 years.
All about opinions innit. Xavi for me.
 
Unread 09-08-2020, 09:44 AM
Sapien
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coracao
All about opinions innit. Xavi for me.
No it's not.
 
Unread 09-08-2020, 09:54 AM
utd99
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coracao
All about opinions innit. Xavi for me.
Correct; it’s all completely subjective. It’s like calling a player ‘world class’ when no one really knows what that means. All the players being discussed were very very good, but assume they were all similar types and similar standards, the one that had the better players around him -ala Xavi- and contributed to more pots will likely fare better in relative comparison.

If Paul Scholes had been a Spurs lifer instead of United, his time there would probably be viewed much like Modric’s was - good, but ultimately meh. Look at the contrast between him in the Arsenal/Chelsea title years and him once we bought Carrick and got some runners around him.
 
Unread 09-08-2020, 09:59 AM
Part 36 Offer
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coracao
All about opinions innit. Xavi for me.
Better than scholes in terms of all round game? No chance. Xavi is probably my favourite non united player of the last 20 years as well tbh or close to. Scholes is criminally underrated imo. Even by our own fans. Scholes was a 10/10 footballer.

Zidane wasn’t an out and out midfielder imo. Rarely played there.

Not seen many players better than Zidane tbf. He was on a different £#%&!ing planet. Think even Xavi would admit Zidane was a better player than him pound for pound.

Quote:
Originally Posted by utd99
Correct; it’s all completely subjective. It’s like calling a player ‘world class’ when no one really knows what that means. All the players being discussed were very very good, but assume they were all similar types and similar standards, the one that had the better players around him -ala Xavi- and contributed to more pots will likely fare better in relative comparison.

If Paul Scholes had been a Spurs lifer instead of United, his time there would probably be viewed much like Modric’s was - good, but ultimately meh. Look at the contrast between him in the Arsenal/Chelsea title years and him once we bought Carrick and got some runners around him.
WTF are you £#%&!ing serious?
 
Unread 09-08-2020, 10:02 AM
Coracao
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Part 36 Offer
Better than scholes in terms of all round game? No chance. Xavi is probably my favourite non united player of the last 20 years as well tbh or close to. Scholes is criminally underrated imo. Even by our own fans. Scholes was a 10/10 footballer.

Zidane wasn’t an out and out midfielder imo. Rarely played there.

Not seen many players better than Zidane tbf. He was on a different £#%&!ing planet. Think even Xavi would admit Zidane was a better player than him pound for pound.
I wouldn't pick anyone over Xavi. If you want to control a game, i don't think there has been anyone better.

I wouldn't have Scholes over Keane.
 
Unread 09-08-2020, 10:06 AM
utd99
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Part 36 Offer
WTF are you £#%&!ing serious?
What part?
 
Unread 09-08-2020, 10:06 AM
Part 36 Offer
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coracao
I wouldn't pick anyone over Xavi. If you want to control a game, i don't think there has been anyone better.

I wouldn't have Scholes over Keane.
Yeah I actually think that’s a fair comment re Xavi.

I loved keano but scholes was so so good. I loved the way he played. Always turned up in big games too. So did Keane of course.

Quote:
Originally Posted by utd99
What part?
Likening scholes to Modric and suggesting he’d be a bit meh?!
 
Unread 09-08-2020, 10:11 AM
AK14
 
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If his name was Paulio Scholesio he’d have been regarded as the best midfielder of the last 30 years

Xavi was top but also played in one of the greatest teams ever with arguably one of the best players ever in a two team league for a decade.
 
Unread 09-08-2020, 10:12 AM
utd99
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Part 36 Offer
Likening scholes to Modric and suggesting he’d be a bit meh?!
Modric was a tremendous player mate; Scholes himself is a huge fan, as was Fergie. Scholes was better, but had the benefit of much better players around him, and a much better manager. You think Scholes would have this type of mythology if he’d spent his career at Spurs rather than here?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AK14
If his name was Paulio Scholesio he’d have been regarded as the best midfielder of the last 30 years

Xavi was top but also played in one of the greatest teams ever with arguably one of the best players ever in a two team league for a decade.
Xavi, Iniesta and Messi (of course) are indisputable. However, all three benefited massively from the others. Having three of the top five players in the world on one team at the same time almost guarantees hegemony.
 
Unread 09-08-2020, 10:17 AM
Coracao
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AK14
If his name was Paulio Scholesio he’d have been regarded as the best midfielder of the last 30 years

Xavi was top but also played in one of the greatest teams ever with arguably one of the best players ever in a two team league for a decade.
One the reasons that team was so great was that he was a key component of it. A strange stick to beat him with.
 
Unread 09-08-2020, 10:18 AM
utd99
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Part 36 Offer
Likening scholes to Modric and suggesting he’d be a bit meh?!
Tbf, the meh bit was more in reference to the career he’d have had. Would Modric have won a Balon D’or at Spurs? Better players around him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coracao
One the reasons that team was so great was that he was a key component of it. A strange stick to beat him with.
Very true. They have have as much to thank him for as vice versa; great player. The combination helped him though.
 
Unread 09-08-2020, 10:27 AM
AK14
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coracao
One the reasons that team was so great was that he was a key component of it. A strange stick to beat him with.
Not really beating him tbh and even said he was a top player

But..

Put Scholes in that Barca team and he’d have been even more incredible

Would Xavi have been successful playing in a midfield with Darron Gibson, Park (I’m a fan btw), Nani, Carrick (again I’m a huge fan), Valencia, Fletcher etc in a competitive league?

Also Zidane was a completely different player to Scholes so pointless comparing them.
 
Unread 09-08-2020, 10:31 AM
utd99
 
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Scholes was a better player with Carrick in the team. I’ve seen him admit as much.
 
Unread 09-08-2020, 10:35 AM
Stickman
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coracao
I wouldn't pick anyone over Xavi. If you want to control a game, i don't think there has been anyone better.

I wouldn't have Scholes over Keane.
Keane was our most important player by a mile after his injury. Before his injury and even 98-99 Butt was often preferred to Scholes. Juve away Etc....
 
Unread 09-08-2020, 10:36 AM
AK14
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by utd99
Scholes was a better player with Carrick in the team. I’ve seen him admit as much.
Carrick was a very good player so no surprise there tbf (probably one of the most underrated players we’ve had?)

But better than Iniesta AND Busquets?
 
Unread 09-08-2020, 10:38 AM
ryanMUFC
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Stranger
Yeah, players tend to get lumped together and history is kind to them.

He peaked around the time of Iniesta and Xavi, but was never quite as good as them.

Lovely player, but not quite that special level.

Zidane is just the best midfielder of the last 25 years.
Agree with you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NedKelly
Zidane and Scholes were different kinds of midfielder altogether though. I’d say they’re at the level where if you choose a favourite it’s purely subjective. There is a case to be made for both.

Calling Pirlo overrated the whole obsession with having the Dm sit back and dictate play from deep basically stems from Pirlo refining that role. Plenty of players can pass with great accuracy but I’m not sure many had the vision Pirlo did.
Entirely possible that a great/very good player can be over rated. Would he have been any good in the premier league? Would he have coped with being pressed by the opposition for 90 minutes? I’d say Zidane would and Pirlo wouldn’t which separates them for me.
 
Unread 09-08-2020, 10:38 AM
Coracao
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AK14
Not really beating him tbh and even said he was a top player

But..

Put Scholes in that Barca team and he’d have been even more incredible

Would Xavi have been successful playing in a midfield with Darron Gibson, Park (I’m a fan btw), Nani, Carrick (again I’m a huge fan), Valencia, Fletcher etc in a competitive league?

Also Zidane was a completely different player to Scholes so pointless comparing them.
Would one of the greatest midfielders of all time have cut it in the Premier League playing for the strongest club. Chances are, he probably would. A lot of imports who flop or struggle want too long on the ball (see Veron) or are physically not up to it. Neither are something I would envisage Xavi struggling with.

I'm not convinced Scholes goes into that Barca side and peforms better than Xavi. Much of their game was based on high intensity pressing and Scholes is nowhere near Xavi in that regard. He'd have fit in with his ability on the ball.
 
Unread 09-08-2020, 10:44 AM
NedKelly
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ryanMUFC
Agree with you.



Entirely possible that a great/very good player can be over rated. Would he have been any good in the premier league? Would he have coped with being pressed by the opposition for 90 minutes? I’d say Zidane would and Pirlo wouldn’t which separates them for me.
I rarely ever see Pirlo touted as the best midfielder of all time (I don’t think I ever have, actually); he unanimously is accepted as one of the best midfielders of his generation (he was), and is also appreciated for his ability to adapt as he aged. He did refine that role of sitting back and pulling the strings from deep, that was his whole schtick. The fact that so many teams since have seen that role as so important speaks volumes. We did it with Carrick, Barca with Busquets etc.

Pirlo was a thinking man, I have no doubt in my mind that he’d have done well in any top team that set themselves up to play to his strengths.
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