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Unread 13-09-2019, 08:50 AM
atticusgrinch
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by red in cumbria
Do they run on time?
Put ours to shame apparently.

Quote:
Originally Posted by red red robbo
Interesting ethical dilema.

Is it OK to use donated aborted fetuses for medical research?

Of course it is.

Is it OK to use donated aborted fetuses for cosmetics?

Of course it isn't.

Why?
One is for the furtherance of mankind and the other is for the furtherance of vanity I'd guess?
 
Unread 13-09-2019, 08:55 AM
Finport Red
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by red red robbo
Interesting ethical dilema.

Is it OK to use donated aborted fetuses for medical research?

Of course it is.

Is it OK to use donated aborted fetuses for cosmetics?

Of course it isn't.

Why?
If you have an ethical dilemma there, then fair enough. For me, it all comes back to whether you consider killing unwanted unborn children is ok or not. If you do, then it matters not whether you use the fetus for medical research or cosmetics.

Ethics require a solid moral stance. When you don't have the latter, the former is a movable feast, and you'll soon find your position moved, voluntariliy or not, by the most vocal minority in society. That's the way it usually works.
 
Unread 13-09-2019, 08:55 AM
TravellingRed
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atticusgrinch
One is for the furtherance of mankind and the other is for the furtherance of vanity I'd guess?
Can't see the difference personally
 
Unread 13-09-2019, 09:03 AM
red red robbo
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finport Red
If you have an ethical dilemma there, then fair enough. For me, it all comes back to whether you consider killing unwanted unborn children is ok or not. If you do, then it matters not whether you use the fetus for medical research or cosmetics.

Ethics require a solid moral stance. When you don't have the latter, the former is a movable feast, and you'll soon find your position moved, voluntariliy or not, by the most vocal minority in society. That's the way it usually works.
Not all are unwanted, some are nonviable.

If an aborted fetus is used for medical research which leads to a treatment that could save or improve millions of lives (polio vaccine is an example given in the article linked) then ultimately the abortion was for the greater good. Not sure you could argue that just for a bit of slap (although that too could ultimately lead to the creation of life ).

I guess it shows that morality is another of those infinitely sliding scales where either extreme is unworkable and most people are somewhere in between and consider their own personal line to be inviolable.
 
Unread 13-09-2019, 09:06 AM
redhegemony
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atticusgrinch
Still, good news about the trains.
what about the bridges?
 
Unread 13-09-2019, 09:08 AM
Finport Red
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by red red robbo
Not all are unwanted, some are nonviable.

If an aborted fetus is used for medical research which leads to a treatment that could save or improve millions of lives (polio vaccine is an example given in the article linked) then ultimately the abortion was for the greater good. Not sure you could argue that just for a bit of slap (although that too could ultimately lead to the creation of life ).

I guess it shows that morality is another of those infinitely sliding scales where either extreme is unworkable and most people are somewhere in between and consider their own personal line to be inviolable.
If it is only non-viable fetuses being used, then what ethical problem is there? We all know, however, that 99% plus of those being used will not be those sort. That is why you have a dilemma.
 
Unread 13-09-2019, 09:12 AM
red red robbo
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finport Red
If it is only non-viable fetuses being used, then what ethical problem is there? We all know, however, that 99% plus of those being used will not be those sort. That is why you have a dilemma.
See comment about sliding morality scale. Some people would object no matter what the viability. There are many people that object to using stem cells from fetus' created in the lab for this express purpose that would never be viable.

I would suspect Jehovah's Witness's would object to being treated with a product that contains any form of human cells, no matter what their provenance.
 
Unread 13-09-2019, 09:24 AM
Finport Red
 
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by red red robbo
See comment about sliding morality scale. Some people would object no matter what the viability. There are many people that object to using stem cells from fetus' created in the lab for this express purpose that would never be viable.

I would suspect Jehovah's Witness's would object to being treated with a product that contains any form of human cells, no matter what their provenance.
If someone is happy enough to permit abortion under any circumstances, for whatever reason, then I can't see what problem they could have with with what the fetus is used for.
Personally, I think that if you are happy enough to accept the killing of the unborn, then what you do with the corpse afterwards is irrelevant. If, however, this notion causes a problem for you morally, then it is the killing of the child that is the cause of your concern.

I think the JWs objections are to blood specifically, but not 100% sure. they have bigger problems than that tbf.
 
Unread 13-09-2019, 09:27 AM
Albert Tatlock
 
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It's not only aborted fetuses that are used. Embryonic Stem Cells are used as well and there are labs all over the world that are producing these.

There is more than one source for embryonic stem cells, placentas, unwanted IVF embryos, deliberately grown human embryos and I believe also that amniocentesis can also lead to successful recovery of viable stem cells. The EU will not fund any research that uses human embryonic stem cells, but the member states, as they are sovereign, may of course fund it themselves. The UK currently does fund research in this area.

On top of this, there is also human germ line cell research, which in simplistic terms is editing the DNA of human embryos and then letting them develop to analyse the results. This is currently banned in all EU member states, but we "know" that certain countries do it (China, Korea etc). The US flip, flops on the idea depending on the political situation. In principle, germ line cell research is not evil in itself, but could of course be used for evil purposes. Non evil examples would be to say genetically modify embryos that carry a debilitating genetic / inherited illness. If it could be proved that certain diseases could be eliminated in humans without side effects, then the research could be a wonderful breakthrough for mankind. The problem is of course that to thoroughly test this, you'd have to let the modified embryo go full term, which would involve a surrogate womb and a live birth baby...but then what do you do with the child and what if the child then later in life develops unforeseen problems due to the manipulation...It's a hot topic in life sciences at the moment.
 
Unread 13-09-2019, 09:30 AM
Finport Red
 
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Albert Tatlock
It's not only aborted fetuses that are used. Embryonic Stem Cells are used as well and there are labs all over the world that are producing these.

There is more than one source for embryonic stem cells, placentas, unwanted IVF embryos, deliberately grown human embryos and I believe also that amniocentesis can also lead to successful recovery of viable stem cells. The EU will not fund any research that uses human embryonic stem cells, but the member states, as they are sovereign, may of course fund it themselves. The UK currently does fund research in this area.

On top of this, there is also human germ line cell research, which in simplistic terms is editing the DNA of human embryos and then letting them develop to analyse the results. This is currently banned in all EU member states, but we "know" that certain countries do it (China, Korea etc). The US flip, flops on the idea depending on the political situation. In principle, germ line cell research is not evil in itself, but could of course be used for evil purposes. Non evil examples would be to say genetically modify embryos that carry a debilitating genetic / inherited illness. If it could be proved that certain diseases could be eliminated in humans without side effects, then the research could be a wonderful breakthrough for mankind. The problem is of course that to thoroughly test this, you'd have to let the modified embryo go full term, which would involve a surrogate womb and a live birth baby...but then what do you do with the child and what if the child then later in life develops unforeseen problems due to the manipulation...It's a hot topic in life sciences at the moment.
I think it's fair to say that, whatever can be used for good, man eventually finds a way to use for evil and, while countries in the west are usually officially against such experimentation in the early days, they are more than happy to let the 'certain countries' rattle away.
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