Jimmy Garner love-in

Originally Posted by Dr Stranger

John O’Shea
Jonny Evans
Danny Welbeck
Jesse Lingard
That keeper currently in our goal.

Admittedly a slight dip in quality post-Beckham.

Originally Posted by NedKelly

Admittedly a slight dip in quality post-Beckham.

99% of all footballers are a drop in quality compared to Beckham.

Originally Posted by Dr Stranger

John O’Shea
Jonny Evans
Danny Welbeck
Jesse Lingard
That keeper currently in our goal.

I agree on all although Lingard didn't make make my original cut neither did Tom Cleverly.

Gary Walsh is another but keepers are a bit different as they would need to be truly exceptional to be pushing for a place at 19/20.

But you must agree its very few considering the number of players to have gone out on loan in quite a long time.

The point i'm making is if you are good enough, United don't send you out on loan in the current squad Rashford, Greenwood and McTom testify to that.

Originally Posted by LaPaz

I don't dispute any of that but history isn't on his side if you've not made a claim for a first team place by the time you are 20 time is running out. There are other younger players pressing for places.

Goalkeepers are an exception because it's unlikly they would ever get games at 19/20 unless they were truly exceptional.



He could be an exception BUT answer my question, how many players who have been out on loan have come back to have a good career at United.

We've got Beckham

Off the top of my head..

Lingard.
O’Shea
Welbeck
Evans
Foster

Of course you’ll now claim none of those have had a good career at United.

Tbf, United don’t use the loan system all that much, and most of the time the players that do go out aren’t ever destined for the first team, we’re just furthering their education and increasing their value. Just because that’s what they do generally doesn’t mean that is the case with Garner. He needs football to progress, but physically isn’t up to the PL. what do you do with him?

Originally Posted by dunk

Off the top of my head..

Lingard.
O’Shea
Welbeck
Evans
Foster

Of course you’ll now claim none of those have had a good career at United.

Tbf, United don’t use the loan system all that much, and most of the time the players that do go out aren’t ever destined for the first team, we’re just furthering their education and increasing their value. Just because that’s what they do generally doesn’t mean that is the case with Garner. He needs football to progress, but physically isn’t up to the PL. what do you do with him?

Foster didn't come through the youth ststem did he, a better call would be Gary Walsh but its not many.

Point being at any of the top clubs if you haven't made an impact by the time you are 21 you are unlikly to (Goalkeepers excepted) so Garner has a little time still.

Originally Posted by LaPaz

Foster didn't come through the youth ststem did he, a better call would be Gary Walsh but its not many.

Point being at any of the top clubs if you haven't made an impact by the time you are 21 you are unlikly to (Goalkeepers excepted) so Garner has a little time still.

Still went out on loan to Watford for 2 years.

Garner has a couple of first team appearances under his belt tbf and has just turned 20, got a decent chance imo.

Originally Posted by LaPaz

I agree on all although Lingard didn't make make my original cut neither did Tom Cleverly.

Gary Walsh is another but keepers are a bit different as they would need to be truly exceptional to be pushing for a place at 19/20.

But you must agree its very few considering the number of players to have gone out on loan in quite a long time.

The point i'm making is if you are good enough, United don't send you out on loan in the current squad Rashford, Greenwood and McTom testify to that.

It’s low in relation to kids coming out of the youth system anyway. Not many kids make it. Simple as that. We can argue the contributions of the examples, but the point is they they went away, came back and had great, good or decent United careers.

If it’s simply a case of proposing that a loan means the end, I think there’s enough examples for it not to be the case, even if the percentage of players making it is very low.

A lot comes down to timing too and position too.. Garner is competing in an overstocked area. Rashford came in during a an injury crisis in a poorly stocked area of the pitch. If we had a fully fit squad, would he maybe have been sent on loan? Rashford got his chance, took it and we’ve never looked back. A slightly tweaked ‘sliding doors’ moment and he could have been out on loan.

Originally Posted by dunk

Still went out on loan to Watford for 2 years.

Garner has a couple of first team appearances under his belt tbf and has just turned 20, got a decent chance imo.

He's atually got 7 appearences the other 5 being in europe but it's not a great impact on a team who in recent time haven't exactly been to strong in the positio he plays. It's not like he has to shift the likes of Scholes, Beckham, etc to claim a place.

Slight change of tac but i'd put Shoretire ahead of him at the start of next season and I wouldn't expect him to go out on loan.

Garner reminds me a little of David Jones (not the one in the Monkees) but sadly faded away (noy likrb Mick Jagger)

Jesse Lingard.

Originally Posted by Dr Stranger

It’s low in relation to kids coming out of the youth system anyway. Not many kids make it. Simple as that. We can argue the contributions of the examples, but the point is they they went away, came back and had great, good or decent United careers.

If it’s simply a case of proposing that a loan means the end, I think there’s enough examples for it not to be the case, even if the percentage of players making it is very low.

A lot comes down to timing too and position too.. Garner is competing in an overstocked area. Rashford came in during a an injury crisis in a poorly stocked area of the pitch. If we had a fully fit squad, would he maybe have been sent on loan? Rashford got his chance, took it and we’ve never looked back. A slightly tweaked ‘sliding doors’ moment and he could have been out on loan.

I didn't actually say that, I said usually the begining of the end and in the time period covered over 100 players have gone out on loan and we've managed to come up with at best 7 who have had good careers at United I'd say proves the point.

Originally Posted by LaPaz

Garner reminds me a little of David Jones

ah, the new bryan robson.

Originally Posted by LaPaz

I didn't actually say that, I said usually the begining of the end and in the time period covered over 100 players have gone out on loan and we've managed to come up with at best 7 who have had good careers at United I'd say proves the point.

Not really. As I said, the majority of players don’t make it, whether they go out on loan or not. I don’t think his going out on loan is any more of an indication that he’ll make it than not going on loan and not playing.

You seemed to be suggesting that going out on loan was a bad sign. Apols if it’s not.

Barring injuries will anchor England's midfield for a decade. Special talent.

Originally Posted by Dr Stranger

Not really. As I said, the majority of players don’t make it, whether they go out on loan or not. I don’t think his going out on loan is any more of an indication that he’ll make it than not going on loan and not playing.

You seemed to be suggesting that going out on loan was a bad sign. Apols if it’s not.

No need for Apols no offence taken just slight difference of opinion.

Another tangent: I don't like the loan system for lots of reasons not least of all, loans to other PL clubs where players can't play against their loaner team but can against the other 18.

Originally Posted by LaPaz

No need for Apols no offence taken just slight difference of opinion.

Another tangent: I don't like the loan system for lots of reasons not least of all, loans to other PL clubs where players can't play against their loaner team but can against the other 18.

Don’t mind the loan system for those 21 and under, think there should be a limit to how many you can loan out and you certainly shouldn’t be able to loan to clubs in the same league, imo. The authorities need to prevent the stockpiling of players, moving forward. I think reducing the number and age allowable for loans it would bring down transfer fees and strengthen clubs outside the top 4/5 in each league.

Originally Posted by dunk

Don’t mind the loan system for those 21 and under, think there should be a limit to how many you can loan out and you certainly shouldn’t be able to loan to clubs in the same league, imo. The authorities need to prevent the stockpiling of players imo.

Exactly my thoughts

Originally Posted by armchair

Barring injuries will anchor England's midfield for a decade. Special talent.

or will have to watch from the bench as mount and foden £#%&! up in a couple of quarter finals.

Originally Posted by jem

or will have to watch from the bench as mount and foden £#%&! up in a couple of quarter finals.

Bring him back, punt Fred off Blackpool Tower.

Originally Posted by LaPaz

I didn't actually say that, I said usually the begining of the end and in the time period covered over 100 players have gone out on loan and we've managed to come up with at best 7 who have had good careers at United I'd say proves the point.

So what? All a young player coming through can ask for is an opportunity to show what they’ve got, then it’s up to them. You can’t say that player A did this and player B did that which means this is going to happen to player C. Every players path is different. Harry Kane went out on loan more than once I believe. The hit rate of loanees is low simply because the hit rate of academy players is low, period.