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Unread 09-03-2007, 04:26 PM
Tumescent Throb
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jem
fergie?


we were robbed in 69, incidentally.


all those muggings of which you speak are fergie's crutch when it comes talking about naivety. it is possible to defend competently but show some attacking intent. he seems happy to try to mug other teams. it's no way to play football (and, in our case, it's not even a horribly effective... we're shit at it). we are talking about a fergie who was playing for a draw when when we were losing against milan.
In Madrid in 91 Webb missed an open goal from 5yds. We then let in two late goals after Schmeichel got mugged at his near post.

The story is similar for all those other games.

I am more than happy to believe we were robbed in 69 btw. Though if only we hadn't been relying on not being robbed, eh
 
Unread 09-03-2007, 04:27 PM
jem
 
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for a player's confidence to be dulled by being played on the wing. and it is possible for fergie's timid lack of ambition to transmit itself to the players.

even the very wonderful mr scholes was £#%&!ed up by fergie moving him around... and he's been one of the best central midfielders in the world for 10 years.
 
Unread 09-03-2007, 04:32 PM
Luffy
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jem
for a player's confidence to be dulled by being played on the wing. and it is possible for fergie's timid lack of ambition to transmit itself to the players.

even the very wonderful mr scholes was £#%&!ed up by fergie moving him around... and he's been one of the best central midfielders in the world for 10 years.
thats bull, Rooney spent most of the time on the wings at Everton, he has played centrally for most of his OT career and has only been in poor form this season, when we have spent more time playnighim behind Saha than anywhere else.

Ronaldo had a semi-bad year as well, Rooney is just tired. Players get tired. Mentally and physically apparently.

Its stupid to blame Fergie for the bad form as if getting players to attack and play fluid football is easy. we have largely kept the same atatcking players playing throughout the season and I have to say it is now catching up with us. It is not lack of ambition or fear which stops us playing good football, it is lack of movement and energy.
 
Unread 09-03-2007, 04:46 PM
jem
 
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we have a difference of opinion.

imnvho, we have consistently taken a negative approach to games in europe (not just away) and against the "better" teams at home. it hasn't just been for the last few weeks. it is a consistent pattern over five years or more.

too rarely do we see the sort of cavalier approach that makes united worth watching and puts the fear of god into the opposition.
 
Unread 09-03-2007, 04:47 PM
Tiberian
 
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We have not had a midfield capable of competing at the top level consistently for about 4 years.

Scholes has been something of a defensive liability for pretty much as long as i can remember, Keane and his efforts allowed us to carry him, and let him do his thing, and make it a workable partnership.

Carrick can not do the same thing, and until Fergie sorts out the midfield and gets the right balance to it he will remain afraid to attack against quality sides for fear of being ripped apart on the break.

If Fergie could trust the midfield to hold their own i would expect to see us attacking teams a lot more. Even Copenhagen at home were going through Carrick and Scholes pretty easily.

The other problem is that we can not play a cagey game properly either, simply because athletic players are needed to fully commit to it, so we are stuck in a rut.
 
Unread 09-03-2007, 04:49 PM
Father Christmas
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jem
ah, the dreamily optimistic approach.




and 0-0 away is not a good result. we need away goals.
Away goals will mean £#%&! all if we beat them at OT.
 
Unread 09-03-2007, 04:51 PM
dodger
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jem
too rarely do we see the sort of cavalier approach that makes united worth watching and puts the fear of god into the opposition.
Continetal sides don't liek it, they shit themselves. Fergie has confused retaining the ball with never passing it.
 
Unread 09-03-2007, 04:52 PM
jem
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Father Christmas
Away goals will mean £#%&! all if we beat them at OT.
this is true.

however, a 0-0 first leg puts us under pressure at old trafford. I'd rather we went for a win over there and they didn't turn up.
 
Unread 09-03-2007, 04:55 PM
Luffy
 
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0-0 draws away from home are horrible results.
 
Unread 09-03-2007, 04:59 PM
Tiberian
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luffy
0-0 draws away from home are horrible results.
Damm right, against Milan when Carrol dropped the ball in i would have settled for 0-0, transfers all the pressure to the home side, any mistakes and they are in real trouble.

Monaco, and the first Madrid tie are the Utd example of it being a deceiving scoreline. Roy Keane OG when we were playing really well, and they proceeded to pick us off on the break.
 
Unread 09-03-2007, 05:03 PM
Luffy
 
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away goals are everything, but tbh I'm not sure how happy I would be to have a 0-0 at home.

Bottom line is you have to just try to win both legs and I have every faith in this team.
 
Unread 09-03-2007, 05:30 PM
Cheadle Chopper
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tumescent Throb
In Madrid in 91 Webb missed an open goal from 5yds. We then let in two late goals after Schmeichel got mugged at his near post.

The story is similar for all those other games.

I am more than happy to believe we were robbed in 69 btw. Though if only we hadn't been relying on not being robbed, eh
It was Walsh in goal in the 4-0 ....
 
Unread 09-03-2007, 05:32 PM
jem
 
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to play for a 0-0 at home, but it's arguably not as bad a result as 0-0 away.

the reason, as stated, that I like the home leg first is that the onus is on us to win and even fergie shouldn't start with a conservative set-up. not to say that he wouldn't. :0)
 
Unread 09-03-2007, 05:32 PM
Stone Monkey
 
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N O H!
 
Unread 09-03-2007, 05:33 PM
magic_cantona
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiberian
Damm right, against Milan when Carrol dropped the ball in i would have settled for 0-0, transfers all the pressure to the home side, any mistakes and they are in real trouble.

Monaco, and the first Madrid tie are the Utd example of it being a deceiving scoreline. Roy Keane OG when we were playing really well, and they proceeded to pick us off on the break.
Spot on.

We were like rabbits in the headlights against Milan.We were £#%&!ing shit.

And I hate Roy Carrol.

I'm always amazed at how badly we play in Europe though.We're dull, tentative, careless, defensive.

And I blame Ferguson.He's clueless in Europe.
 
Unread 09-03-2007, 05:37 PM
Gypsum Fantastic
 
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Away games

Copenhagen
Celtic
Benfica
Lille

Hardly cup winning form is it. What makes people think we're suddenly going to run through Roma?
 
Unread 09-03-2007, 05:39 PM
magic_cantona
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gypsum Fantastic
Away games

Copenhagen
Celtic
Benfica
Lille

Hardly cup winning form is it. What makes people think we're suddenly going to run through Roma?

We won't.

Roma will be far too experianced for our lads.

And if we beat them, Milan will do us.We'll be more likely to beat Bayern.
 
Unread 09-03-2007, 05:39 PM
S/Side.Red
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiberian
We have not had a midfield capable of competing at the top level consistently for about 4 years.

Scholes has been something of a defensive liability for pretty much as long as i can remember, Keane and his efforts allowed us to carry him, and let him do his thing, and make it a workable partnership.

Carrick can not do the same thing, and until Fergie sorts out the midfield and gets the right balance to it he will remain afraid to attack against quality sides for fear of being ripped apart on the break.

If Fergie could trust the midfield to hold their own i would expect to see us attacking teams a lot more. Even Copenhagen at home were going through Carrick and Scholes pretty easily.

The other problem is that we can not play a cagey game properly either, simply because athletic players are needed to fully commit to it, so we are stuck in a rut.
I reckon that's a really good point.

The team with the best midfield usually wins the Champions League. United have been performing poorly in Europe for around three years now and I don't think it is a coincidence that during that period we've seen the demise of Keane, the emergence of Fletcher and playing time for O'Shea in position.

There's no doubt that the tactics haven't been great overall, but I think the personnel has been the main problem. In addition, when you don't have the players (I believe we played Richardson, Fletcher and Smith in midfield against Lille in the CL last season) it can look more negative than it actually is, due to players' lack of confidence and general inability to have an impact on a game.

If we don't win it this season, it will probably be because we aren't strong enough in midfield. Our defence is the best in the competition, we have a great goalkeeper and you won't find a more dangerous front three left in the tournament than Ronaldo, Rooney and Saha.

But Carrick has found the step up difficult and Scholes, for all his class, is no athlete. And, as we all know, our midfield begins and end with those two.
 
Unread 09-03-2007, 05:42 PM
Cheadle Chopper
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheadle Chopper
It was Walsh in goal in the 4-0 ....

'Enjoying Insanity' posting by using my username again btw. He got confused with Barcalona defeat there rather reading that it was about playing against Athletico Madrid.
 
Unread 09-03-2007, 05:44 PM
jem
 
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is going to argue that midfield isn't a weakness at best and a liability once we get injuries or suspensions.

still, at least scholesy will be raring to go, eh? :0)
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