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Unread 06-08-2007, 09:16 AM
The Return of JC
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sharath
you should be. thats what makes you world class.

Maldini and cafu did it so beautifully as did carlos in his pomp days.
No one is suggesting he's world class though.

You're comparing him with Maldini and Cafu, that's a little unfair on Evra don't you think.

Cafu and Maldini are arguably the two finest full backs of our generation. Use them as the benchmark, perhaps. But directly gauging Evra's quality by their standard? Bit harsh and pointless considering they're past their best too.

Bit like digging at VDS because he's not as good as Schmeichel.

More important is comparing him with the left backs of today and I really can't think of many more full backs I'd rather have than him.
 
Unread 06-08-2007, 09:18 AM
sharath
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Return of JC
No one is suggesting he's world class though.

You're comparing him with Maldini and Cafu, that's a little unfair on Evra don't you think.

Cafu and Maldini are arguably the two finest full backs of our generation. Use them as the benchmark, perhaps. But directly gauging Evra's quality by their standard? Bit harsh and pointless considering they're past their best too.

Bit like digging at VDS because he's not as good as Schmeichel.

More important is comparing him with the left backs of today and I really can't think of many more full backs I'd rather have than him.
cole, gallas as a fullback, ramos, clichy....
 
Unread 06-08-2007, 09:22 AM
The Return of JC
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sharath
cole, gallas as a fullback, ramos, clichy....
Cole, perhaps but has the same problems Evra has. Now who's being subjective. Cole gets exposed against top class opposition too.

Not seen much of Ramos, but a Gael Clichy better than Evra? You must be joking! He's only just holding down his place at Arse.

The fact that you've named a CB playing out of position only proves how few other options there are.
 
Unread 06-08-2007, 09:23 AM
Whalefish
 
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Gallas? Doesn't want to play at full back, stroppy disruptive @#%&!. Clichy? Do me a favour.

As for Ramos - you single out Evra's positional play as a weakness and him being 'too' offensive. Have you actually seen Ramos when he's played right back? He has exactly the same faults.
 
Unread 06-08-2007, 09:24 AM
sharath
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Return of JC
Cole, perhaps but has the same problems Evra has. Now who's being subjective. Cole gets exposed against top class opposition too.

Not seen much of Ramos, but a Gael Clichy better than Evra? You must be joking! He's only just holding down his place at Arse.

The fact that you've named a CB playing out of position only proves how few other options there are.
I haven't seen cole getting exposed as much as evra. I have seen plenty of both for all the clubs they played for and internationally too.

Ramos played as right back and I would like to mention as an excellent right back for sevilla and in some performances for real too.

clichy is year on year improving and getting the balance right between attacking and defending which evra still hasn't.

I think it will be better to talk about evra a year on from now. lets see how much he would have done...
 
Unread 06-08-2007, 09:27 AM
Rhodzy
 
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You're talking %@#$&!s sharath, also Evra seems like a great guy and I bet all the players love him, same can't be said for Cashley.
 
Unread 06-08-2007, 09:29 AM
Whalefish
 
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I'm waiting for someone to bump this back up when he costs us a goal.
 
Unread 06-08-2007, 09:32 AM
The Return of JC
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sharath
I haven't seen cole getting exposed as much as evra. I have seen plenty of both for all the clubs they played for and internationally too.

Ramos played as right back and I would like to mention as an excellent right back for sevilla and in some performances for real too.

clichy is year on year improving and getting the balance right between attacking and defending which evra still hasn't.

I think it will be better to talk about evra a year on from now. lets see how much he would have done...

Yes, Clichy is improving, but still nowhere near as good as Evra/ Cole.

So, you admit Cole does get exposed - even if it's not as much as Evra? And many consider Cole the best in the world.

I don't want to drag this out and in essence I agree with the sentiment that Evra is flawed. He just needs to work on his positional sense and discipline. In the same way Ronaldo still needs to work on when to release the ball and his discpline. Or how Rooney needs to work on his heading and shooting accuracy. They're just flaws, but I'd harldy suggest that R and R are weak links.
What you see as a weak link or liability, I see as minor flaws that are no big deal.
 
Unread 06-08-2007, 09:33 AM
The Return of JC
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whalefish
I'm waiting for someone to bump this back up when he costs us a goal.
I'll do it!!!
 
Unread 06-08-2007, 09:52 AM
rebelcountyred
 
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slightly off topic but in the event of tweety and heinze leaving can jonny evans do a job for us in the left back position, i am sure he has played there for northern ireland and got good reviews for it, more a defensive option than attacking .
 
Unread 06-08-2007, 10:00 AM
Gypsum Fantastic
 
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Sharath - you missed Alves off your list.

Clichy!!

- hit the bricks man, cos a loser is a loser.

Evra is a great little player and Whaley and JC have this discussion nailed down.
 
Unread 06-08-2007, 10:06 AM
sharath
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rhodzy
You're talking %@#$&!s sharath, also Evra seems like a great guy and I bet all the players love him, same can't be said for Cashley.
Thats irrespective.

maradona was probably @#%&! of a man but a genious of a player.

and yeah, I missed alves. affects of him being linked to chelsea probably.
 
Unread 06-08-2007, 10:16 AM
Barracuda
 
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Just out of interest Sharath, can you list all the genuine left backs who you rate higher than Evra ...

By genuine left back I mean not a centre back playing at left back, not a right back, - or not a left back who is playing his last season in professional football.

I personally wouldn't have Ashley Cole if he was handed to us on a gold plate, good player no doubt, but not a Utd player at all. Heinze used to be good, but has deteriorated rapidly since his injury and is now the last person on earth I want to see in our shirt.

A fit Zambrotta is one of the very few I would take over Paddy, and the lad who played for Italy in the WC looked OK from what little I saw. But other than those I can't say anyone else is really a great improvement on what we already have.

You don't seem to rate Paddy, so just wondered who you'd want instead?
 
Unread 06-08-2007, 10:31 AM
Serenity Now
 
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Clichy's final ball is very inconsistent at best and his medium and long range passing is often poor. He also gets too tight to his man and dives in too much, although this isn't as big an issue for him as it is for someone like Heinze, as Clichy has absolutely electric pace to recover (can still be exploited using a wall pass). Good player and he definitely seems to be steadily improving, but I wouldn't say he's better than Patrice at this point. Seems to be a bit injury prone too.

As Whalefish said, when Ramos plays at fullback he suffers from a lot of the same problems as Evra. He has good physical and technical qualities, but he gets caught out of position a lot and often gets too tight to his man. He also commits a lot of fouls. One advantage he does have over Evra is his height and aerial ability, so the ploy of isolating him with a deep diagonal ball doesn't work. Lots of potential and like Clichy is improving all the time, but not the finished article yet.

Personally, I believe that being exposed to counterattacks is one of the prices you pay for playing attacking football. Of course you have to take measures to minimise that risk (unless you're Johan Cruyff), but the more focus you put on lessening it, the more you disrupt your attacking qualities.

Arrigo Sacchi had arguably the greatest backline ever assembled at his disposal at Milan, and yet because he was committed to attacking football, both with and without the ball, he had to pioneer the use of the tactical foul to lessen their vulnerability to being caught on the break.

When United go forward we'll often play with a 6:4 or even 7:3 balance of attacking to defensive players. There's no way to avoid being exposed if you do that.

And if you want to play positive football like this, especially if you're a team like us who puts an emphasis on wing play, having fullbacks with good attacking qualities is vital. If someone like Heinze is playing it's very difficult to stop the opposition doubling up on our wide players. So I'd much rather have Evra in the team, with his ability to participate in the attacking build-up, overlap the wide player and then the pace and stamina to recover his position quickly when the ball is lost, than a more defensively oriented player, even against top class opposition.

Yes, Evra may not always get the balance right between attack and defence, but for me his positive qualities more than outweigh the negatives. And it's not like he's a Dani Alves who you need to build your team around to allow him to play at fullback.
 
Unread 06-08-2007, 10:35 AM
Serenity Now
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sharath
I missed alves. affects of him being linked to chelsea probably.
So you think Evra is a defensive liability, yet you rate Alves? Sevilla basically play Poulsen in midfield just because of Alves, so that he can cover the space that Alves vacates when he moves forward, or even slot into Alves' position in the backline.
 
Unread 06-08-2007, 10:36 AM
Whalefish
 
Thumbs up

Spot on Serenity.
 
Unread 06-08-2007, 10:42 AM
sharath
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barracuda
You don't seem to rate Paddy, so just wondered who you'd want instead?
Its not that I rate him, actually from premiership only cole, gallas and clichy are the fullbacks I would accept before evra but just pointing out that he can be a liability in big games. he gets so much caught out of position that its painful to see. he is up around with ronaldo while the attacker is up against vidic.

no wonder he will just roll across the tross which we usually play against in premiership but if we are looking to take that step beyond I am saying he should improve defensively very much.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Serenity Now
So you think Evra is a defensive liability, yet you rate Alves? Sevilla basically play Poulsen in midfield just because of Alves, so that he can cover the space that Alves vacates when he moves forward, or even slot into Alves' position in the backline.
I haven't seen ALves so far getting caught out so much out of position and making mistakes as evra was for monaco/ is for united.

granted I didn't watch all 38 games of sevilla but from what I have seen thats what I thought.
 
Unread 06-08-2007, 10:45 AM
wiganste
 
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Sharath - you a bit of a know nothing £#%&!wit

Stick to offering people new internet service providings or giving them free ring dings.
 
Unread 06-08-2007, 10:49 AM
puressence
 
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leight banes is mint id have shorey aswell from reading
 
Unread 06-08-2007, 10:57 AM
sharath
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wiganste
Sharath - you a bit of a know nothing £#%&!wit

Stick to offering people new internet service providings or giving them free ring dings.
thats not my job.

and it is all about having different opinions.

will trolling through the forum to abuse people, try to improve english grammar too if you can.
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