How great was this man again today?

Originally Posted by borsuk

did you ever actually watch him before he got to chelsea? absolutely exquisite player at his best, about the only player of this generation comparable to scholes imo. of course, it's easy being a big fish in a relatively small pond like barcelona.

Of course I did.

And I disagree entirely, particularly comparing him to the peerless Scholes at his peak.

Originally Posted by borsuk

btw the rest of the post is mind-bogglingly daft as well. i don't think the future has looked so promising since the giggs generation. it's a fantastic crop of youngsters we've got right now.

the debt and fergie eventually leaving are worries, fair enough. but i won't have the rest about the playing resources we have atm. we're in rude health in that regard imo.

I agree.

However, with the notable exception of Evans and Fletcher (if he even counts as a youngster anymore), we're still going back to the old lads time and time again.

I don't see that as something to be celebrated.

Liverpool's era was ended by Dalglish leaving with a team that had simply gotten too old.

Having a lot of talented youngsters in the squad means nothing if they're not getting the opportunities in big games that will help them blossom into the Giggs/Scholes/Neville/VDS of tomorrow.

As for the criticism of my view that this Utd team isn't a patch on the great sides of 93-01, for starters, our central midfield wouldn't get a kick off of any combination of Keane, Ince & Scholes at their peak. VDS is no Schmeichel and we've rarely had striking combinations in recent years that would compare with Hughes/Cantona, Yorke/Cole, Sheringham/Solskjaer. Centre-half is probably at least as strong as in any era but that's still three of the four "spine" positions where Utd are simply not as dominant as they once were.

Originally Posted by S/Side.Red

From 2003-2006 there was no better midfielder in the world, imo.

Jesus.

Originally Posted by Sloppy

It is about time though tbh.

Don't mind him.

One of the posters on here whose views I'd respect.

Originally Posted by Sloppy

It is about time though tbh.

celt, do you think the rest of world football has gone into some kind of crisis? after all, this side which is so much weaker than our previous ones has achieved more success than almost any of them.

Originally Posted by celtbion

Jesus.

I take it you didn't bother to watch the Porto, Barcelona or Portugal teams during that period? If you did and you failed to see how influential Deco was in each side's success, to the point that you find my post ridiculous, then I really don't think you were paying enough attention because he played a crucial role for all three. It was no coincidence.

Originally Posted by borsuk

well, i'm a natural optimist, i suppose, so i see no reason why the next manager can't be successful. he won't be fergie or have the unique qualities that fergie has, that much is clear. but, then, he won't have to do the job that fergie had to do - to pull a dysfunctional club up by its bootstraps, knock discipline into it, create, in many ways from scratch, a structure and culture of excellent from the academy to the first team etc etc. i really don't think fergie's frankly astonishing achievement in recreating the club from top to bottom will ever be generally appreciated. for me, that's his achievement and it's what separates him from every single other manager. plenty have had success but i can't think of another who has built something in the way fergie has. wenger is the only one close, and he hasn't had the success, the odd title aside.

the new manager, whoever it is, will inherit when the time comes a structure and a culture which is second to none. all he will have to do is maintain it and tend it, not remake it.

Agree completely with that, my concern is we end up with a new manager who creates the same situation we had after Busby stepped down, his legacy was not carried forward, new managers want to do things their way and of course that can work, if, and I hope to God it does not happen, the next manager has a bad start and the natives get restless then the debt issue will turn really nasty.

I agree with Borsuk

But

I do think that we need Hargreaves to be injury free and a true replacement fo Giggs, before Fergie moves on

Originally Posted by borsuk

celt, do you think the rest of world football has gone into some kind of crisis? after all, this side which is so much weaker than our previous ones has achieved more success than almost any of them.

Celts, you need to think like a carpenter, measure twice and cut once, in your case think twice and post once, Deco for Barcelona was amazing, Chelsea does not appear to suit him, it happens, does not mean he is now a bad player.

Originally Posted by borsuk

celt, do you think the rest of world football has gone into some kind of crisis? after all, this side which is so much weaker than our previous ones has achieved more success than almost any of them.

Yes, actually. I don't think Frank Lampard would be a "top class" central midfielder in any other era.

Think about who Keane and Scholes were up against at European level at their peak?

The Arsenal sides that occasionally displaced Utd in the late 90s and early noughties would give our current Prem holders a serious run for their money and probably best them.

I think there are a lot of mediocre midfields around currently.

Not the foggiest idea why, mind.

Originally Posted by S/Side.Red

I take it you didn't bother to watch the Porto, Barcelona or Portugal teams during that period? If you did and you failed to see how influential Deco was in each side's success, to the point that you find my post ridiculous, then I really don't think you were paying enough attention because he played a crucial role for all three.

I did and, particularly for Portugal, I thought he was one of the worst sorts of luxury player.

Sure, look at Giggs, one of the finest attacking players of the modern era but also a really nice tackler, tracks back etc.

I'd have a bias for more well-rounded players and, to touch on Borsuk's point, with the emphasis on systems now, I think there's a tendency for modern teams to indulge players like Deco and Ronaldo more often than they would long ago. However, it comes at the cost of having more functionaries or "water carriers" to paper over the cracks they leave.

Originally Posted by celtbion

Yes, actually. I don't think Frank Lampard would be a "top class" central midfielder in any other era.

Think about who Keane and Scholes were up against at European level at their peak?

The Arsenal sides that occasionally displaced Utd in the late 90s and early noughties would give our current Prem holders a serious run for their money and probably best them.

I think there are a lot of mediocre midfields around currently.

Not the foggiest idea why, mind.



I did and, particularly for Portugal, I thought he was one of the worst sorts of luxury player.

Sure, look at Giggs, one of the finest attacking players of the modern era but also a really nice tackler, tracks back etc.

I'd have a bias for more well-rounded players and, to touch on Borsuk's point, with the emphasis on systems now, I think there's a tendency for modern teams to indulge players like Deco and Ronaldo more often than they would long ago. However, it comes at the cost of having more functionaries or "water carriers" to paper over the cracks they leave.

yeah thats right

porto league and european cup winners indulged him as their fulcrum

barca league and european cup winners indulged him as their key link man

portugal went to the euro final carrying him

man utd won 3 consecutive titles and a european cup indulging ronaldo

or you could argue they were class players that elevated the team to their greatest heights

these managers that win everything know absolutely nothing don't they. what were they even thinking having these players in the team???

Originally Posted by celtbion

I did and, particularly for Portugal, I thought he was one of the worst sorts of luxury player.

Sure, look at Giggs, one of the finest attacking players of the modern era but also a really nice tackler, tracks back etc.

I'd have a bias for more well-rounded players and, to touch on Borsuk's point, with the emphasis on systems now, I think there's a tendency for modern teams to indulge players like Deco and Ronaldo more often than they would long ago. However, it comes at the cost of having more functionaries or "water carriers" to paper over the cracks they leave.

To be honest, I think you completely misjudged the player, as a lot of people in this country did. Deco, during his prime years at least, has always been an extremely well-rounded midfielder. As well as his obvious technical and creative attributes, he had a tremendous work-rate and ability to win possession for the team. At no stage was he ever considered by anyone, especially Mourinho, a luxury player or someone other midfielders had to carry or compensate for in a defensive sense. Whether that is still the case is a different argument, admittedly, but during the years highlighted, he was never a tactical problem in the way you're suggesting.