Pogback: Part II

Originally Posted by dunk

He was getting pelters from the Mou brigade long before any hint of him being unsettled. They wanted him sold for perceived shit performances when it was clear he was clashing with Mou... ‘back the manager ’ same with Martial.

I wouldn’t defend his actions last summer one bit tbh, in fact, I’d see him sold and replaced with Havertz, but as that isn’t going to happen, him staying and performing is the key.

If United are competing during his peak years there won’t be a problem. Leave him to prop up the entire side while it struggles in mid table and you may see him agitate for a move.

But why?

Speaking more broadly, it's not a given that you have to destabilise a club to get better terms/leave.

De Gea wanted to leave (and almost made it happen) without kicking up much of a fuss. He certainly ended up with more cash.

I suppose it irks more because we're struggling. Maybe Pogba is getting more stick than he deserves. But again, he has to own that.

Originally Posted by Dr Stranger

Agree on the performances part.

Maybe I’m missing something but performances are quite important

We broke the world record for him and put him in the highest bracket of wages on the planet making him the focal point of the team. We managed 6th in his first season and we’re told we needed to play him in a three and sign someone to sit in next to him. We did that and there was minimal discernible improvement, 8-10 decent matches a season, 8-10 stinkers, the rest you are left wondering what his best position is.

Compare and contrast to Keane who signed at a similar age, pedigree and expectation. Started as a box to box player more focused on attacking, adapted first to playing with a similar player in Ince, adapted again to sit in more alongside Scholes then adapted again to playing in a 5.

There is universal agreement that his performances haven’t been good enough, some people think that’s because the club haven’t used the right formation, signed the right players to play alongside him or had the right manager. The majority of people however think that if after 4 years the guy can’t dominate games in a league where more than half the teams make the numbers up that it’s a reflection of the player himself, madness I know.

Originally Posted by Dr Stranger

You're undermining your own argument. You described his behaviour as 'inexcusable', but you would excuse it had he done what Ronaldo has done for us.

Conduct shouldn't be conditional. If it's as bad as you're making out, no amount of good games and service would make it ok.

As for his agent. I'm not defending him and I'm not saying Pogba isnt responsible for himself.... but we do seem to be wilfully ignoring what agents are, what they do and how they say it.

They hint, they talk in riddles, they put themselves first and they feedback to the player that it's for their own good. Most of these players just go with it. It doesn't make it right and Riola is notoriously one of the worst for it, but it's more commonplace than not and Pogba isn't some sort of weird exception to the dynamic.

The Ole thing with Riola wasn't good. It was unhelpful, but it's a big jump from that to NEVER PLAY FOR THE CLUB AGAIN.

'Only god knows' interviews on foreign television and talking in riddles was a hallmark of Ronaldo from 2006 to the time he left. It didn't stop him having several seasons of success and didnt mean he doesn't have affection for the club.

Saying 'he has done way more than pogba has' isnt an excuse. We either condemn the conduct or we dont.

The fans seem to take issue with this far more than players and staff.

Do you not think Ole would avoid playing him if he was as bad as he's being made out?

The people who get the most upset seem to take every interview, every tweet and every agent quote to heart and then revisit it as undeniable facts.

Frankly, I'm far more bothered about the Bunks assertion that he hasn't yet strung a handful of games together that make you think he will be the player we need.

Bunks is talking shit though. Pogba was brilliant and chipping in with a goal/assist a game from Ole’s arrival until getting injured in April last year, he’s been out injured with the same problem ever since, pretty much. He was very good in spells under Mou, who wanted him to be a defensive grunt in a long ball team.

Has he hit the heights we’d hoped/expected; fleetingly, has he been ‘Shit week in week out’ no, don’t be stupid.

Originally Posted by Hyman_Roth

He was getting pelters from everyone for putting in shit performances. He’s continually put in shit performances with a variety of different managers. No question Mou made everyone worse - he did.

But don’t excuse him.

If he gets his head down, plays like he has been doing consistently and him, his brother and his agent shut the f*** up trying to unsettle everything all the time then fine with me.

Feels like too ambitious a change for such a monumental #@&%! to achieve but we’ll see. I’d keep him for as long as he does the right thing but f*** him off the moment he steps out of line. And if we have an opportunity to offload him and instead get a decent reliable alternative in then I’d take that all day long.

I think that's something everyone wants and we can agree on.

Except Bunks.

Originally Posted by dunk

Bunks is talking shit though. Pogba was brilliant and chipping in with a goal/assist a game from Ole’s arrival until getting injured in April last year, he’s been out injured with the same problem ever since, pretty much. He was very good in spells under Mou, who wanted him to be a defensive grunt in a long ball team.

Name me his 12 best games for United...

City comeback 1.

11 to go....

Originally Posted by Bunker Buster

Name me his 12 best games for United...

City comeback 1.

11 to go....

Shut up you dick.

Originally Posted by Chris Quayd

Maybe I’m missing something but performances are quite important

We broke the world record for him and put him in the highest bracket of wages on the planet making him the focal point of the team. We managed 6th in his first season and we’re told we needed to play him in a three and sign someone to sit in next to him. We did that and there was minimal discernible improvement, 8-10 decent matches a season, 8-10 stinkers, the rest you are left wondering what his best position is.

Compare and contrast to Keane who signed at a similar age, pedigree and expectation. Started as a box to box player more focused on attacking, adapted first to playing with a similar player in Ince, adapted again to sit in more alongside Scholes then adapted again to playing in a 5.

There is universal agreement that his performances haven’t been good enough, some people think that’s because the club haven’t used the right formation, signed the right players to play alongside him or had the right manager. The majority of people however think that if after 4 years the guy can’t dominate games in a league where more than half the teams make the numbers up that it’s a reflection of the player himself, madness I know.

Absolutely. I'm not arguing that. In fact, it surprises me that people are more bothered by Instagram videos than his proclivity to get dispossessed in his own half because he's being selfish.

Originally Posted by Bunker Buster

Name me his 12 best games for United...

City comeback 1.

11 to go....

He actually didn't even play that well in that

We got battered for the first 50 minutes and the last 20.

Originally Posted by Dr Stranger

Absolutely. I'm not arguing that. In fact, it surprises me that people are more bothered by Instagram videos than his proclivity to get dispossessed in his own half because he's being selfish.

Tbh, a lot of the times he was dwelling on the ball because no £#%&!er wanted it or was showing for it.

Originally Posted by dunk

Shut up you dick.

He's played over 100 games since his return ?

You can't name 10 ?

Originally Posted by dunk

Tbh, a lot of the times he was dwelling on the ball because no f***er wanted it or was showing for it.

There's that, but I think we can all agree he's been underwhelming at best, on the pitch.

Originally Posted by Bunker Buster

He's played over 100 games since his return ?

You can't name 10 ?

Stupid argument, not even worthwhile taking you on. He’s had lots of very good games, scored and made lots of goals. It’s not even up for debate.

Originally Posted by Dr Stranger

There's that, but I think we can all agree he's been underwhelming at best, on the pitch.

As I said earlier, not hit the heights hoped, not been anywhere near as bad as #clown is claiming.

Originally Posted by Dr Stranger

You're undermining your own argument. You described his behaviour as 'inexcusable', but you would excuse it had he done what Ronaldo has done for us.

Conduct shouldn't be conditional. If it's as bad as you're making out, no amount of good games and service would make it ok.

As for his agent. I'm not defending him and I'm not saying Pogba isnt responsible for himself.... but we do seem to be wilfully ignoring what agents are, what they do and how they say it.

They hint, they talk in riddles, they put themselves first and they feedback to the player that it's for their own good. Most of these players just go with it. It doesn't make it right and Riola is notoriously one of the worst for it, but it's more commonplace than not and Pogba isn't some sort of weird exception to the dynamic.

The Ole thing with Riola wasn't good. It was unhelpful, but it's a big jump from that to NEVER PLAY FOR THE CLUB AGAIN.

'Only god knows' interviews on foreign television and talking in riddles was a hallmark of Ronaldo from 2006 to the time he left. It didn't stop him having several seasons of success and didnt mean he doesn't have affection for the club.

Saying 'he has done way more than pogba has' isnt an excuse. We either condemn the conduct or we dont.

The fans seem to take issue with this far more than players and staff.

Do you not think Ole would avoid playing him if he was as bad as he's being made out?

The people who get the most upset seem to take every interview, every tweet and every agent quote to heart and then revisit it as undeniable facts.

Frankly, I'm far more bothered about the Bunks assertion that he hasn't yet strung a handful of games together that make you think he will be the player we need.

I don’t think I’m contradicting myself. I do think the performances of players for our club gives them privilege. Ronaldo had earned that even though it pissed me off royally at the time because I felt he was undermining the team before some of it’s biggest matches. But he then performed exceptionally in those matches and carried the team to its success. If he hadn’t, his actions would have been inexcusable. It’s excusable because of something else he did. Not that difficult to understand.

And don’t lose sight of how this started. Neo calling out people who were ‘stupid’ for wanting pogba to leave and then assuming that those same people would be satisfied by Scott Mctom. Which is %@#$&!s.

The club has signed pogba’s replacement. It remains to be seen whether pogba stays or not.

I’d be happy for him to stay if he does what he should - I’m not confident he will though and if another player became available that could improve on him (which shouldn’t be that hard given his inconsistency) then I’d take it.

Originally Posted by dunk

Stupid argument, not even worthwhile taking you on. He’s had lots of very good games, scored and made lots of goals. It’s not even up for debate.

Weird, because my world class signings past and present I could list you games they've grabbed, made a difference, scored or completely bossed the game ......real games to remember, not even in title winning games...

Looks like Le Trundle can just get away with scoring sometimes......that's enough...

Let's not forget there's games where he (Pogba) was that BAD we left competitions and he gave away penalties and goals...

. Pogba made just two tackles in the entire game and lost possession a staggering 21 times, more than any other player on the pitch.

But one moment sums up just how awful he was, and it was Kante's decisive goal.

You're a coward.

Would Pogba be playing this well if he had to make a return in front of the fans?

Suits him perfectly. no pressure...

Originally Posted by Dr Stranger

You're undermining your own argument. You described his behaviour as 'inexcusable', but you would excuse it had he done what Ronaldo has done for us.

Conduct shouldn't be conditional. If it's as bad as you're making out, no amount of good games and service would make it ok.

As for his agent. I'm not defending him and I'm not saying Pogba isnt responsible for himself.... but we do seem to be wilfully ignoring what agents are, what they do and how they say it.

They hint, they talk in riddles, they put themselves first and they feedback to the player that it's for their own good. Most of these players just go with it. It doesn't make it right and Riola is notoriously one of the worst for it, but it's more commonplace than not and Pogba isn't some sort of weird exception to the dynamic.

The Ole thing with Riola wasn't good. It was unhelpful, but it's a big jump from that to NEVER PLAY FOR THE CLUB AGAIN.

'Only god knows' interviews on foreign television and talking in riddles was a hallmark of Ronaldo from 2006 to the time he left. It didn't stop him having several seasons of success and didnt mean he doesn't have affection for the club.

Saying 'he has done way more than pogba has' isnt an excuse. We either condemn the conduct or we dont.
.

You’re missing Hyman’s point, it’s inexcusable in the context of Pogba’s performances. Ronaldo rightly got a lot of shit for his last year’s antics off the pitch but he did it on the pitch which went a long way to making up for that. Despite the fact he was consistently brilliant for three seasons people were relieved to see him go because he was demeaning the club.

There is a massive difference between acting a @#%&! off the pitch while leading us to three titles and acting a @#%&! off the pitch while we scramble about in the Europa places.

Originally Posted by Hyman_Roth

I don’t think I’m contradicting myself. I do think the performances of players for our club gives them privilege. Ronaldo had earned that even though it pissed me off royally at the time because I felt he was undermining the team before some of it’s biggest matches. But he then performed exceptionally in those matches and carried the team to its success. If he hadn’t, his actions would have been inexcusable. It’s excusable because of something else he did. Not that difficult to understand.

And don’t lose sight of how this started. Neo calling out people who were ‘stupid’ for wanting pogba to leave and then assuming that those same people would be satisfied by Scott Mctom. Which is %@#$&!s.

The club has signed pogba’s replacement. It remains to be seen whether pogba stays or not.

I’d be happy for him to stay if he does what he should - I’m not confident he will though and if another player became available that could improve on him (which shouldn’t be that hard given his inconsistency) then I’d take it.

They haven’t. They’ve signed someone to play with him, as they should’ve much earlier, the previous manager would never have had 2 attack minded players in the midfield though.. if Pogba leaves he will need replacing, desperately.

Originally Posted by Bunker Buster

Weird, because my world class signings past and present I could list you games they've grabbed, made a difference, scored or completely bossed the game ......real games to remember, not even in title winning games...

Looks like Le Trundle can just get away with scoring sometimes......that's enough...

Let's not forget there's games where he (Pogba) was that BAD we left competitions and he gave away penalties and goals...

You're a coward.

You’re talking absolute shit and are a #clown. ‘your world class signings’? #purelite

Originally Posted by Hyman_Roth

I don’t think I’m contradicting myself. I do think the performances of players for our club gives them privilege. Ronaldo had earned that even though it pissed me off royally at the time because I felt he was undermining the team before some of it’s biggest matches. But he then performed exceptionally in those matches and carried the team to its success. If he hadn’t, his actions would have been inexcusable. It’s excusable because of something else he did. Not that difficult to understand.

I think we're in a danger of arguing over semantics a little here, but if nothing else, the Ronaldo example shows that you can do all that shit and still be an asset. It doesn't mean the end.

If (big if) Pogba can perform more consistently to the point where he's of value, I dont think many of us would have a problem, and we'd see a reduction in all that 'noise'. I think it's something of a vicious cycle. That agent starts up when we're at our weakest.

And don’t lose sight of how this started. Neo calling out people who were ‘stupid’ for wanting pogba to leave and then assuming that those same people would be satisfied by Scott Mctom. Which is balls.

Well, no. That's just the forum spectrum extremes. Nothing is nuanced.

And I wouldn't have it any other way

The club has signed pogba’s replacement. It remains to be seen whether pogba stays or not.

I’d be happy for him to stay if he does what he should - I’m not confident he will though and if another player became available that could improve on him (which shouldn’t be that hard given his inconsistency) then I’d take it.

Agreed.

.

Originally Posted by Chris Quayd

You’re missing Hyman’s point, it’s inexcusable in the context of Pogba’s performances. Ronaldo rightly got a lot of shit for his last year’s antics off the pitch but he did it on the pitch which went a long way to making up for that. Despite the fact he was consistently brilliant for three seasons people were relieved to see him go because he was demeaning the club.

There is a massive difference between acting a c*** off the pitch while leading us to three titles and acting a c*** off the pitch while we scramble about in the Europa places.

Addressed in reply to Roth.

Originally Posted by dunk

They haven’t. They’ve signed someone to play with him, as they should’ve much earlier, the previous manager would never have had 2 attack minded players in the midfield though.. if Pogba leaves he will need replacing, desperately.



You’re talking absolute shit and are a #clown. ‘your world class signings’? #purelite

As in players I think are world class

Pogba was signed, lorded and claimed by you and others to be world class, best midfielder in Europe...

You can't name 12 games where he's been class


This is on the pitch...

Off, he's an even bigger @#%&! & coward...

Originally Posted by dunk

They haven’t. They’ve signed someone to play with him, as they should’ve much earlier, the previous manager would never have had 2 attack minded players in the midfield though.. if Pogba leaves he will need replacing, desperately.



You’re talking absolute shit and are a #clown. ‘your world class signings’? #purelite

Come on Dunk. I thought Pogba had played his last ever game for us until Covid hit and he probably did too.

Cracking player when on blob but also a colossal tart.