If England lose tonight

Originally Posted by 1MUFC

Perhaps not but I would still be supporting them and many others would. When I was young I was told I supported United, all my family support United and we are all local to club. It’s down to where you are brought up and the people you are brought up by, not if they signed the best players, had the best ground, played the best football. I was a United fan from the start whether we were shite or whether we were the greatest club on the planet.

And that’s still the case today.

I do have to agree with this bloke for once. If it wasn't for my family I wouldn't be a Red. Simple as that.

It by no means has to be a local thing, but I don't swing with the whole 'Always supported United because of the style of football they play'

I can understand why people would admire us for that reason, but that's not justification for being a supporter.

Originally Posted by Ed Sullivan

I can understand why people would admire us for that reason, but that's not justification for being a supporter.

Why not? If a kid sees us play on the telly, loves the way we play so starts to support us (gets into football, stats going to the match when older etc), what's wrong with that? Why is that "no justification" for supporting the club? Perhaps all those who've been following the club since the 60's (because they loved how Georgie or Charlton played) should pack it in and £#%&! off?

Originally Posted by The Watcher

Why not? If a kid sees us play on the telly, loves the way we play so starts to support us (gets into football, stats going to the match when older etc), what's wrong with that? Why is that "no justification" for supporting the club? Perhaps all those who've been following the club since the 60's (because they loved how Georgie or Charlton played) should pack it in and £#%&! off?

Shut the £#%&! up you £#%&!ing dick, are you for real.

Originally Posted by Grimson

You also wouldn't support United if they played football the way England does.

I didn't start and still don't follow United because they play nice entertaining football. But I'm glad they do.

In fact, I admit I'm not a football purist.

I got into United for all sorts of peripheral reasons - the crowd, the tribal element, fashion, my mates, being able to be a naughty teenager and being applauded for it, swearing loudly in public etc - it had very little to do with 11 blokes kicking a ball about.

Basically, being able to be a bit of a @#%&! and getting away with it.

I'm guessing but I suspect that 75% of my time at OT during the 80's was spent staring and pointing at the away fans from United road.

I know I wasn't alone.

Originally Posted by 1MUFC

Perhaps not but I would still be supporting them and many others would. When I was young I was told I supported United, all my family support United and we are all local to club. It’s down to where you are brought up and the people you are brought up by, not if they signed the best players, had the best ground, played the best football. I was a United fan from the start whether we were shite or whether we were the greatest club on the planet.

And that’s still the case today.

You are probably right, but then, how can we know? If United had been utter shit your whole life, you may well have drifted away from it by now. Many wouldn't, many certainly would.

Originally Posted by My Name is Keith

I didn't start and still don't follow United because they play nice entertaining football. But I'm glad they do.

In fact, I admit I'm not a football purist.

I got into United for all sorts of peripheral reasons - the crowd, the tribal element, fashion, my mates, being able to be a naughty teenager and being applauded for it, swearing loudly in public etc - it had very little to do with 11 blokes kicking a ball about.

Basically, being able to be a bit of a @#%&! and getting away with it.

I'm guessing but I suspect that 75% of my time at OT during the 80's was spent staring and pointing at the away fans from United road.

I know I wasn't alone.

I hear you brother

I've been supporting Man U since may 1999 and will continue supporting them all my life, until they go crap.

I don't care about attractive football, history wasn't important, I got into it because I know what's important, being on the winning side.

Originally Posted by The Watcher

Why not? If a kid sees us play on the telly, loves the way we play so starts to support us (gets into football, stats going to the match when older etc), what's wrong with that? Why is that "no justification" for supporting the club? Perhaps all those who've been following the club since the 60's (because they loved how Georgie or Charlton played) should pack it in and £#%&! off?

that's a generation thing. I'm aware that's how the support has been built but I'm not sure it's even a good thing. I mean, by that reckoning - if United didn't have the attacking style and players - their support would be redundant as it's their main reason for supporting in the first place. I'm not saying they should £#%&! off but maybe they will if we play dull football? As it happens, even Tommy D's side played well despite the results not being there. And attendances did drop before the premier league domination kicked in, so maybe that was the evidence.

Originally Posted by Grimson

You are probably right, but then, how can we know? If United had been utter shit your whole life, you may well have drifted away from it by now. Many wouldn't, many certainly would.

You are missing the point and I don’t think you have quite grasped how it works. I was either going to support United or City and was told i am United, everything else is irrelevant.

I wasn’t living in Torquay and told by my parents you can support any team you like, I suggest you support one playing good football and signing all the best players, maybe watch a bit of telly and if you like a team 500 miles away it doesn’t matter.

And its still the £#%&!ing same, every town remotely near the club are either City or United, you just don’t support anyone else.

Originally Posted by 1MUFC

You are missing the point and I don’t think you have quite grasped how it works. I was either going to support United or City and was told i am United, everything else is irrelevant.

I wasn’t living in Torquay and told by my parents you can support any team you like, I suggest you support one playing good football and signing all the best players, maybe watch a bit of telly and if you like a team 500 miles away it doesn’t matter.

And its still the £#%&!ing same, every town remotely near the club are either City or United, you just don’t support anyone else.

No, I get that. You're explaining how you became United. What I'm saying is, that loyalty has never been really put to test for fans under 35 or so, because the side has been consistently very good, or at least played attractive football. I'm not talking about becoming a supporter, I'm talking about remaining one. And I'm not talking about you, personally, I'm talking about fans in general. You can't deny teams like Forest, Leeds, and Millwall will have lost supporters over the last decade because of the team's plummeting fortunes.

Originally Posted by Grimson

No, I get that. You're explaining how you became United. What I'm saying is, that loyalty has never been really put to test for fans under 35 or so, because the side has been consistently very good, or at least played attractive football. I'm not talking about becoming a supporter, I'm talking about remaining one. And I'm not talking about you, personally, I'm talking about fans in general. You can't deny teams like Forest, Leeds, and Millwall will have lost supporters over the last decade because of the team's plummeting fortunes.

The people who are local to the club are brought up differently to those outside, we aren’t going anywhere regardless.

Forest Leeds Millwall all still have very good gates, and its fans who are born and bred into the club who are still there whilst the pretend fans have £#%&!ed off.

Yeah you’ll still have a handful from outside the club who will still be as passionate about them and stay with us, but that’s it a handful, the rest that make that group will desert and are pathetic dick heads imo.

Originally Posted by Grimson

You also wouldn't support United if they played football the way England does.

Am pretty sure I would. Mainly because all of the alternatives are even worse and apart from my Grandad all the family blues were boring compared to the mental beer sneaking at family do's United tinker side.

i think

if united didn't have the traditions and history that we have then we wouldn't be united. it's not ot or the shirt that makes united united. it's the traditions and the history - without that i wouldn't recognise the club. i'm local, but united wasn't the closest club to me by a long way, and supporting united in my family goes a long way back, back before my family moved to england.

that's why fc, which i respect and which i have supported financially since its founding, is not and will never be united. the traditions and the history - the good and the bad - are what i associate with and feel a part of. and a long and glorious history of vivid, glorious, beautiful football is a big part of that. i remember when we got rid of sexton because he wasn't doing it the united way, though the results were ok (for where we were then). a proud moment, that.

No Borsuk, I thought about his statement before I replied. The top and bottom of it was that he implied that if United were boring, as England are, I wouldn't have ended up being a United fan.

That just isn't true and involves some quite daring assumptions on Grimbo's part.

Originally Posted by 1MUFC

Shut the £#%&! up you £#%&!ing dick, are you for real.

What an eloquent retort. I'm in awe of your debating talents

Originally Posted by Ed Sullivan

that's a generation thing. I'm aware that's how the support has been built but I'm not sure it's even a good thing. I mean, by that reckoning - if United didn't have the attacking style and players - their support would be redundant as it's their main reason for supporting in the first place. I'm not saying they should £#%&! off but maybe they will if we play dull football? As it happens, even Tommy D's side played well despite the results not being there. And attendances did drop before the premier league domination kicked in, so maybe that was the evidence.

Well, many who started following the club in the Busby era were still there when Sexston was in charge, so it hardly makes them redundant! But different people support the club for different reasons. Some for the football, some to act a bit "nawty" like Keith and so on. Either reason is a good enough "justification" to follow United.

Indeed, I believe Grimson himself is a River fan partly because of watching the 78 World Cup on TV as a youngster. By your logic, that's not a good enough reason to support them? He seems quite into it, so you better tell him to stop

Originally Posted by The Watcher

Well, many who started following the club in the Busby era were still there when Sexston was in charge, so it hardly makes them redundant! But different people support the club for different reasons. Some for the football, some to act a bit "nawty" like Keith and so on. Either reason is a good enough "justification" to follow United.

Indeed, I believe Grimson himself is a River fan partly because of watching the 78 World Cup on TV as a youngster. By your logic, that's not a good enough reason to support them? He seems quite into it, so you better tell him to stop

Yeah, at the end football is quite subjective which is why it brings up so many arguments.

I'm going to ask grimson to stop though, so a pm is on his way.

Originally Posted by El Calafate

i will laugh my %@#$&!s off!

nft.

why? arent you english? club before country yes, but surely you want them to win? no wonder the country is going down the pans

Originally Posted by My Name is Keith

No Borsuk, I thought about his statement before I replied. The top and bottom of it was that he implied that if United were boring, as England are, I wouldn't have ended up being a United fan.

That just isn't true and involves some quite daring assumptions on Grimbo's part.

No, again you've got it wrong. I suggested you wouldn't still be a United fan, not that you'd never have become one in the first place. You can protest to the contrary, but it's never been put to the test. It's like saying you'd still love your wife if she got fat. Maybe you would and maybe you wouldn't, but it's an easy thing to say when she's thin.

Originally Posted by Alfonso Alves

why? arent you english? club before country yes, but surely you want them to win? no wonder the country is going down the pans labyrinth

Great movie.

Originally Posted by My Name is Keith

No Borsuk, I thought about his statement before I replied. The top and bottom of it was that he implied that if United were boring, as England are, I wouldn't have ended up being a United fan.

That just isn't true and involves some quite daring assumptions on Grimbo's part.

fair enough.

it seems to me there are three possible reasons for supporting a club:

(a) it's the nearest - your local - or you work for it/play for it etc
(b) you just choose it randomly, or on the basis of the name sounding nice/the shirt being pretty etc
(c) you find something about the club's history and traditions appealing

most of us get taken by our dads/granddads, but that just pushes the reason back a generation: there must have been a reason why our dad (etc) chose the club. now, if it's (a) then fair enough - no argument. if it's (b) then you're as much of a supporter as a pigeon sitting on the scoreboard and crapping on the scousers, or less, posssibly. if it's (c) - most of the support, i'd guess - then what grimson said is absolutely true.