Net spend

Originally Posted by S/Side.Red

I can see why Evans, Welbz and Clevz made it through the academy in terms of ability, physical qualities etc. Especially Welbeck, who had all the tools to be a top player. But you're nothing without the right mentality. Welbz plays with the confidence and composure of a guy with half his ability. The other two are complete @#%&!. Growing trend for us to produce talented young players who are mentally weak.

Unfortunately this comes with the territory of being a club with the history of producing it's own players and having a manager for whom this was central to his managerial philosophy. Anyone can go out and buy finished product players from outside, but bringing through youth has more risk attached, and a lot of time it's just not going to work out. Problem is you won't really know if it's a success or failure until they have been given a significant opportunity. Even then it's not easy to determine, as evidenced by the divided opinion on here about pretty much everyone. Except possibly Cleverley.

Originally Posted by utd99

Unfortunately this comes with the territory of being a club with the history of producing it's own players and having a manager for whom this was central to his managerial philosophy. Anyone can go out and buy finished product players from outside, but bringing through youth has more risk attached, and a lot of time it's just not going to work out. Problem is you won't really know if it's a success or failure until they have been given a significant opportunity. Even then it's not easy to determine, as evidenced by the divided opinion on here about pretty much everyone. Except possibly Cleverley.

There was a short spell, with Ando carrying him, when the Cleverley hype was in full bloom. Kevin Davies ended it.

Originally Posted by Tiberian

There was a short spell, with Ando carrying him, when the Cleverley hype was in full bloom. Kevin Davies ended it.

Apparently he would have been the toast of Barcelona. Can't remember who said that.


Oh yeah, it was him.

Originally Posted by S/Side.Red

I notice the club takes responsibility for summer 2013 and LvG takes responsibility for what's happened since

Moyes had the whole summer (and earlier) to work on targets. LvG arrived in mid July, some two months later, which is probably why his six signings included two the club had set up, two household names offered by Woodward, a player he already knows inside out and a defender he'd have studied as an opponent at the World Cup.

The big initial risk with van Gaal was always that, despite being a summer appointment, he'd have very little preparation time for the new season. The tour robbed him of the training he'd like to have done, and his World Cup participation made scouting impossible.

Besides, he inherited three youngish British defenders with big reputations as far as the club (and Ferguson) was concerned. I do think he wanted to give them a go. If we consider a defensive leader to be someone with experience and proven quality at the highest level, as well as the footballing characteristics LvG likes, they're not that easy to come by. I'd settle now for another quality youngster.

We've spent nearly £300m since Fergie left, but it's been a rush-job, which is a big part of the problem. That and a third of it going on Di Maria and £#%&!ing Fellaini.

As far as I recall Moyes took over in proper order so as not to put Everton's nose out of joint, and LVG was at the world cup until July and did likewise in respecting the job he already had right up till he left it.

Imv a large part of the #@&%!-up the summer Fergie left, and especially given the chosen one's lack of experience in the market at a club like United, was how the club conducted that window - it was an absolute £#%&!ing shambles and anyone putting that mainly at the feet of the new manager is an idiot - even if the new manager turned out to have £#%&!ed up all the deals I would still blame the club for letting it happen ffs. They'd had months to prepare for it, they had deals lined up, and they £#%&!ed it up.

I certainly do not blame LVG for the signings that were actually made last summer, except maybe the Di Maria one - it was an exciting deal in one sense, but if he'd fancied Memphis at that point surely it would have been better to go in high for him instead of getting fleeced on Di Maria. The rest of the signings were all fine by me, including the punt on Falcao.

The point is though that he's now had a whole season and two more windows and up to now has deliberately weakened the striker pool and failed to address the defensive issues at centre back. He also appears heavy on AM's all of a sudden which threatens to block the route to the 1st team for some, and especially when he inevitably resorts to using Fellaini.

If he were to not sign anyone in defence I'd be okay with it as long as he intends to bring Blackett and McNair through - or at least try anyhoo - and that very much goes for the other youngsters currently in contention further forward.

Originally Posted by utd99

This is not Fifa, where when you buy a Falcao or a Di Maria, they play like Falcao or Di Maria. These are real people with real issues. If football has taught us anything it's that money does not always equal solution. It gives you a better chance for sure, but no guarantee.

You say "problems" with the squad that Fergie left, but again it's a surface argument. Delve deeper, list out the squad one by one and tell me which of those players you deem were good enough to have gotten us back to where we wanted to be. And to belittle the influence of a Giggs, Scholes Vidic and Ferdinand feels like moulding the facts to fit a predetermined conclusion. These were our leaders, our winners; been there done it, seen it all. Role models. Their effect, along with that of Ferguson of course, on our support players can never be underestimated. It was only when this influence in the changing room was removed that the inadequacies of the rest was laid bare. These were more than just a few "problems" we could throw some money at.

Also, you are savvy enough to know you cannot cherry pick one or two games, in this case the RM matches, to make the point that they were indeed good enough. Anyone can have a good game at any time, but what does that mean? If Jones has a £#%&!ing stormer against Spurs, is he suddenly the answer? None of these players you mentioned will play shit every game, it doesn't work that way. The question should be how many shit ones will they have over a 60 game season?

It doesn't require Welbeck, Smalling, Evans, Jones, Valencia et al to be 'good' to have a good team, nor does a good team automatically make the aforementioned players 'good'. You can win despite them, which is precisely what happened.

Agree with the thrust until the last bit. You cannot win the league despite the ability of the bulk of your squad, you win it because the vast majority of your squad are excellent individually at their jobs and collectively are all pulling for the same cause.

People will always dream up reasons why United won 5 out of 7 league titles despite (sic) all their players, but let's be honest, it's pretty ridiculous when you scratch below the surface.

Particularly on those Real games, United were clearly able to compete toe to toe with them and they were two really good european games. The stat I posted the other day about the number of times (20) that 12/13 scored 3 or more goals tells a story about what level they were at as well, when you also se that the 07/08 team only managed it 15 times, and the Treble side only 18.

Originally Posted by Semantic Lisp

As far as I recall Moyes took over in proper order so as not to put Everton's nose out of joint, and LVG was at the world cup until July and did likewise in respecting the job he already had right up till he left it.

Moyes had from mid-May to begin his own preparations, especially as he already had his staff in place. He had a lot of time to assess potential players and begin contacts. Him seemingly being unable to make decisions (a reputation he had at Everton) in the market was a bad fit for us. For whatever reason, he had nearly four months and only came up with Fellaini. LvG had much less time and still signed off on six deals. I think Moyes's caution was probably in evidence again.

LvG has weakened the frontline, but it's the right decision. Falcao had to go and RvP isn't made to play the deputy. Let's see what happens in the remainder of the window, but given the overhaul needed anyway, combined with LvG bringing a different approach to what we're used to, I must say I'm not that surprised it's been so chaotic. The Di Maria and Falcao failures haven't helped, as you say.

Originally Posted by S/Side.Red

Moyes had from mid-May to begin his own preparations, especially as he already had his staff in place. He had a lot of time to assess potential players and begin contacts. Him seemingly being unable to make decisions (a reputation he had at Everton) in the market was a bad fit for us. For whatever reason, he had nearly four months and only came up with Fellaini. LvG had much less time and still signed off on six deals. I think Moyes's caution was probably in evidence again.

LvG has weakened the frontline, but it's the right decision. Falcao had to go and RvP isn't made to play the deputy. Let's see what happens in the remainder of the window, but given the overhaul needed anyway, combined with LvG bringing a different approach to what we're used to, I must say I'm not that surprised it's been so chaotic. The Di Maria and Falcao failures haven't helped, as you say.

If Moyes had 4 months then so did LVG. Like I said, they both honoured their existing contracts. Not sure why you would think they'd be especially different scenarios. Still baffles me why people, and not only stupid people, blame the whole post-Fergie malaise at the feet of the manager(s).

As far as weakening the front line being the right decision, we'll only know for sure when we know how well Rooney lasted. At this moment though it looks to be a clear mistake. The window isn't shut yet of course, and if another striker is fetched in then that in itself would indicate that LVG himself would see it as a mistake to go with what he's got as well.

Originally Posted by Semantic Lisp

If Moyes had 4 months then so did LVG. Like I said, they both honoured their existing contracts. Not sure why you would think they'd be especially different scenarios. Still baffles me why people, and not only stupid people, blame the whole post-Fergie malaise at the feet of the manager(s).

As far as weakening the front line being the right decision, we'll only know for sure when we know how well Rooney lasted. At this moment though it looks to be a clear mistake. The window isn't shut yet of course, and if another striker is fetched in then that in itself would indicate that LVG himself would see it as a mistake to go with what he's got as well.

Largely because LvG actually had another job to do on the other side of the world, while Moyes didn't.

A week into July 2014, van Gaal was in Brazil preparing Holland for a World Cup semi final.

A week into July in 2013:

Originally Posted by S/Side.Red

A week into July in 2013:

oh right, I thought you said

Originally Posted by S/Side.Red

Moyes had from mid-May to begin his own preparations

One thing's for sure, the club had months to prepare for Ferguson retiring and to understand what they wanted to do next, including in the transfer market.

Originally Posted by Semantic Lisp

oh right, I thought you said



One thing's for sure, the club had months to prepare for Ferguson retiring and to understand what they wanted to do next, including in the transfer market.

They would have done. Same way when van Gaal took over he pushed a couple of deals over the line that were already set up. By many accounts, for Moyes those deals included Thiago. But heaven forbid a manager with nothing to do between mid-May and taking over on the 1st of July could watch some games, talk to some scouts and come up with some ideas other than Fabregas and Bale.

Originally Posted by S/Side.Red

They would have done. Same way when van Gaal took over he pushed a couple of deals over the line that were already set up. By many accounts, for Moyes those deals included Thiago. But heaven forbid a manager with nothing to do between mid-May and taking over on the 1st of July could watch some games, talk to some scouts and come up with some ideas other than Fabregas and Bale.

are you seriously trying to turn this into an argument about who's the better manager out of Moyes and LVG

i imagine the conversation with LVG went something like this:

you've got a blank chequebook to spend however the £#%&! you like. in the meantime we've already set up herrera and shaw, do you want them as well? yeah ok.

£#%&!ing genius.

Originally Posted by Semantic Lisp

are you seriously trying to turn this into an argument about who's the better manager out of Moyes and LVG

No I'm objecting to your sympathy for Moyes getting the job in May and seemingly failing to make any progress on a solitary signing until the 2nd of September when he went back to Everton to bring in that useless @#%&! Fellaini. And how the dithering @#%&!'s ineptitude has been a major factor in the rush-job van Gaal has had to do, which for all the money spent has been a chaotic overhaul.

It's like someone said earlier, this isn't a computer game where you buy a new team and it all just works out. Ideally a new manager coming into a new country doesn't have to sign 12 first-team players inside his first year.

Originally Posted by S/Side.Red

No I'm objecting to your sympathy for Moyes getting the job in May and seemingly failing to make any progress on a solitary signing until the 2nd of September when he went back to Everton to bring in that useless c*** Fellaini. And how the dithering @#%&!'s ineptitude has been a major factor in the rush-job van Gaal has had to do, which for all the money spent has been a chaotic overhaul.

It's like someone said earlier, this isn't a computer game where you buy a new team and it all just works out. Ideally a new manager coming into a new country doesn't have to sign 12 first-team players inside his first year.

you can't seem to decide when he got the job

and that useless @#%&! fellaini is the very same player that saved LVG's first season from being an abject failure, arguably moreso than moyes bearing in mind their respective CV's.

LVG would not have had to sign half the players he has if United had been ready in summer 2013, and it's arguable whether he needed to sign 12 players already anyway.

Originally Posted by Semantic Lisp

People will always dream up reasons why United won 5 out of 7 league titles despite (sic) all their players, but let's be honest, it's pretty ridiculous when you scratch below the surface.

Well I'm not sure who this is aimed at, but if it's me there is no way that what I wrote could remotely be construed as us winning 5 titles out of 7 despite "all of our players". Not even close. I merely remarked that way too many of our 12/13 squad were suited to be support cast at best, and when it was their turn to step up they were found wanting. Since most have been drummed out of the club subsequently, I'll assume Van Gaal agrees.

Originally Posted by utd99

Well I'm not sure who this is aimed at, but if it's me there is no way that what I wrote could remotely be construed as us winning 5 titles out of 7 despite "all of our players". Not even close. I merely remarked that way too many of our 12/13 squad were suited to be support cast at best, and when it was their turn to step up they were found wanting. Since most have been drummed out of the club subsequently, I'll assume Van Gaal agrees.

not really having a go at anyone, just railing against received wisdom

incidentally I would say that of the supporting cast LVG has really only 'drummed out' a handful of players - cleverly, nani, anderson, welbeck, kagawa... after that it's mostly veterans who've left along with bit part players.

by comparison brown, o'shea, owen, berbatov, park and hargreaves iirc all left at various points during fergie's last couple of seasons, along with a similar number of bit parters

the real work LVG has had to tackle is replacing the veterans, of course, as we all know. and he currently appears to be of the opinion that the 2 english centrebacks fergie brought in for the job are in contention. go figure.

Originally Posted by Semantic Lisp

and that useless @#%&! fellaini is the very same player that saved LVG's first season from being an abject failure, arguably moreso than moyes bearing in mind their respective CV's.

Please don't make me use the laughing baby gif again pal.

What saved LvG's first season was LvG finding a system that got the best out of a very limited group after Di Maria, Falcao and RvP had flopped. It could easily have fallen apart with such little creative talent, but the big man produced a balanced system that delivered when we needed it

Originally Posted by S/Side.Red

It's like someone said earlier, this isn't a computer game where you buy a new team and it all just works out. Ideally a new manager coming into a new country doesn't have to sign 12 first-team players inside his first year.

Sorry pal no disrespect obvs.

Originally Posted by S/Side.Red

Please don't make me use the laughing baby gif again pal.

What saved LvG's first season was LvG finding a system that got the best out of a very limited group after Di Maria, Falcao and RvP had flopped. It could easily have fallen apart with such little creative talent, but the big man produced a balanced system that delivered when we needed it

fanciful nonsense really tbh

he did have the outline of his system, but it was tactical variation that saved the season - Carrick dropping virtually into a 3 at Anfield was a good tactical choice, for example. Overall it was using Fellaini's skill set and exploiting Mata that were the two key aspects that saved the season from abject failure. also high on that list was persevering with Young & Valencia as well as shifting Rooney up front out of the way and allowing Herrera to blossom a bit.

Originally Posted by Semantic Lisp

fanciful nonsense really tbh

he did have the outline of his system, but it was tactical variation that saved the season - Carrick dropping virtually into a 3 at Anfield was a good tactical choice, for example. Overall it was using Fellaini's skill set and exploiting Mata that were the two key aspects that saved the season from abject failure. also high on that list was persevering with Young & Valencia as well as shifting Rooney up front out of the way and allowing Herrera to blossom a bit. Carrick dropping virtually into a 3 at Anfield was a good tactical choice, for example.

Was the fact that Carrick dropped virtually into a 3 at Anfield a good tactical choice, for example?

Originally Posted by bigMikeA

Was the fact that Carrick dropped virtually into a 3 at Anfield a good tactical choice, for example?

it certainly was. although apparently we went to 4-3-3 and that's why we had that good run.