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Unread 03-08-2015, 05:59 PM
Semantic Lisp
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jammy Dodger
So what you're saying is fergie had a great squad, oversaw it's gradual decline via under investment by the club, and then got out at the right time before the shit hit the fan. Quite insightful. I think I agree.

Ferguson knew how to get the whole squad pulling for each other, for the club, and playing to his tune on the pitch. You may think there was a lack of investment, but that would be because you're biased against the qualities of the players Ferguson chose to blend into his winning teams i.e. it's your problem, not his or United's. Like I said, LVG is current flavour of the month with the likes of you, and yet he is giving new contracts to key players bought in by Ferguson during his last few seasons - so that to me is a ringing endorsement of how those players conduct themselves on and off the pitch, a key building block of a winning squad even if they are not - and they certainly are not - out-and-out top quality footballers.

Fergie's squad during his last few seasons benefitted from united's reputation and ferguson's psychological hold over the opposition and often referees. A lot of matches were a struggle with us somehow getting a result. Usually one player had a good period which carried the team too. Nani for a few months, Berbatov, van Persie.

Last season Ashley Young was a key player for us, Mike Smalling is widely held to have improved dramatically (for some reason) and Fellaini was effectively the difference between the team making top 4 and not making it during that 6 game run in the spring. Without De tea in the first half of the season we would have been closer to the bottom than the top 4 most likely.

He also had a huge hold over a lot of managers, whether friend or rival.

Yes I absolutely agree, part of his armoury was always a psychological nous rarely before seen - he knew the game, the authorities, the media, his players, and their opponents inside out, particularly domestically.

A team could outplay us, be leading 1-0 and when it got to the final minutes, the opposition team and fans would collectively shit themselves due to expecting a united comeback. As would the ref sometimes and give us 50-50 decisions in our favour, but refs sometimes also went the other way through fear of abus, depending on which way the wind was blowing with the media coverage.

If you genuinely believe United's fighting spirit and psychological dominance, as demonstrated for 2 decades, was mostly down to psychological weakness in the opponent and the officials then you're an idiot.

We've lacked all the above since he left. Take away those things and the team's natural level would have been around 2nd-4th, and that's before age and retirements took their toll.

That is also nonsense. Is as if you think football ability, teamwork and tactics played the smallest part in United's success - you're absolutely £#%&!ing batshit mental if so

I mostly blame the glazers for the gradual decline of the squad. Ferguson was a great manager and manipulator of people, but he had let certain things slide during the last 5-10 years, which is almost inevitable considering he'd been virtually semi retired during that period and delegated most things. The scouting and youth development became a joke and he largely relied on agent contacts for players.
Again, the squad won 2 leagues in ferguson's last 3 seasons, and 5 in his last 7. LVG has used many of the squad of players Ferguson left behind and rewarded them with new contacts. The Thiago deal was on the table in summer 2013, the Fabregas one was mooted also, as was a left back. On top of that a striker was sure to follow bearing in mind the Rooney situation at the time.

The perceived decline is largely a myth. The new manager had some terrific talent ready to be moulded around his own ideas. Moyes didn't have the time to do it before his methods were rejected. LVG is in the process of doing it now - with De Gea, Jones, Smalling, Young, Valencia, Rooney, Carrick, Januzaj and Hernandez all still part of the squad 3 summers later.
 
Unread 03-08-2015, 10:17 PM
Alex Jones was Right
 
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Quote:
Ferguson knew how to get the whole squad pulling for each other, for the club, and playing to his tune on the pitch. You may think there was a lack of investment, but that would be because you're biased against the qualities of the players Ferguson chose to blend into his winning teams i.e. it's your problem, not his or United's.
Ferguson's approach to the game whenever we played a big team showed what he thought of the squad in his latter years. He clearly thought it lacking in an area or two against the better teams.

I also remember fergie lamenting losing out on 4 in a row. There was a lot of regret there, and personally, I read into it that it was because he was unable to invest in the team as he'd have liked and he missed out on something historic as a result.

He could invest, but not on those special talents that make the differnce at the highest level. Every special player that retired was replaced by an inferior player. One of the reasons Giggs and scholes were kept around as long as possible.

Quote:
Without De tea in the first half of the season we would have been closer to the bottom than the top 4 most likely.
I disagree. There were periods early on when the opponents were scoring with virtually every shot they had. De gea wasn't saving us in any way. Then he made a good save against Everton and things changed.

Quote:
If you genuinely believe United's fighting spirit and psychological dominance, as demonstrated for 2 decades, was mostly down to psychological weakness in the opponent and the officials then you're an idiot.
No. I said the latter ferguson team benefitted from the reputation of the previous ones, and the subsequent effect it had on our opponents. United still had fighting spirit, as we wouldn't have won the latter titles without it, but the opponents certainly helped us out by collectively shitting it, whether before the game or in the last few minutes when winning, as a result of reputation built up by better ferguson teams.

There's always a lag before the mentality of opponents catches up to current reality. Some teams were getting less scared, had a go, but then still shit it in the last minutes. Fergie going just accelerated that mentality change in our opponents.

Quote:
[That is also nonsense. Is as if you think football ability, teamwork and tactics played the smallest part in United's success - you're absolutely £#%&!ing batshit mental if so
They played their part, but without the other things they'd have lead to us finishin lower in the table. Unless you think all the other stuff had zero effect.

There were a lot of close games against average opposition in those last few title wins. Some real struggles that the team somehow managed to squeak something out of due to mentality of ourselves and our opponents.

Once fergie left, we still had those struggles, but failed to squeeze something out of them due to the psychological changes.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Semantic Lisp
The perceived decline is largely a myth. The new manager had some terrific talent ready to be moulded around his own ideas. Moyes didn't have the time to do it before his methods were rejected. LVG is in the process of doing it now - with De Gea, Jones, Smalling, Young, Valencia, Rooney, Carrick, Januzaj and Hernandez all still part of the squad 3 summers later.
So you didn't see any decline in the quality of football after Quieroz left around 2009? Results were maintained, but the style of it declined year on year.
 
Unread 03-08-2015, 11:10 PM
Semantic Lisp
 
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jammy Dodger
Ferguson's approach to the game whenever we played a big team showed what he thought of the squad in his latter years. He clearly thought it lacking in an area or two against the better teams.

Ferguson's basic principle was to score goals, but there was always a specific game plan of sorts and there was always particular targets for each opponent. Going way back to the first double team he would sometimes go to a 5 even at home, for example. It barely got mentioned because people preferred to bang on about spirit and mind games

I also remember fergie lamenting losing out on 4 in a row. There was a lot of regret there, and personally, I read into it that it was because he was unable to invest in the team as he'd have liked and he missed out on something historic as a result.

He could invest, but not on those special talents that make the differnce at the highest level. Every special player that retired was replaced by an inferior player. One of the reasons Giggs and scholes were kept around as long as possible.

I don't doubt that there's some truth there, but at the same time they were very very close to 4-in-a-row and but for the home defeat to Chelsea would have done it imo. And let's not forget that that team let slip a 3-0 lead at home to Bayern Munich in the 2nd leg of the CL q/f because Ferguson refused to remove a lame striker and replace him with the £30m striker he had kept on the bench - a striker who was his and the PL's top scorer the following season btw. Incidentally, the view that he was hamstrung in the market is given the lie by the fact that that 10/11 season saw Hernandez bought for just £6m and be second top scorer behind Berbatov by just 1 goal.

As far as Scholes and especially Giggs go, people will no doubt deny it till they're blue in the face but the fact is that even after Scholes came back out of retirement he was the best player in the PL at what he did, and Giggs was still among the best in the entire league up until the season Ferguson retired. Saying they got a game because they were too expensive to replace is a cheap and disrespectful myth leader - the reality is they were that good they stayed far longer than anybody really expected.




I disagree. There were periods early on when the opponents were scoring with virtually every shot they had. De gea wasn't saving us in any way. Then he made a good save against Everton and things changed.

Even if that were true the Everton game is still only game#7.



No. I said the latter ferguson team benefitted from the reputation of the previous ones, and the subsequent effect it had on our opponents. United still had fighting spirit, as we wouldn't have won the latter titles without it, but the opponents certainly helped us out by collectively shitting it, whether before the game or in the last few minutes when winning, as a result of reputation built up by better ferguson teams.

There's always a lag before the mentality of opponents catches up to current reality. Some teams were getting less scared, had a go, but then still shit it in the last minutes. Fergie going just accelerated that mentality change in our opponents.

Ferguson and United's reputation was built over 2 decades and the effect of previous incarnations did not suddenly manifest itself at the end ffs

What changed in 2013 was that Ferguson left and the teams around United seized the moment to accelerate. Meanwhile United stood still despite sitting on a huge wedge and then made themselves look stupid by bringing in Fellaini at the last minute as their only signing. the effect on our rivals was immediate, and I for one am grateful that City hung in and stopped the vermin taking ultimate advantage.



They played their part, but without the other things they'd have lead to us finishin lower in the table. Unless you think all the other stuff had zero effect.

There were a lot of close games against average opposition in those last few title wins. Some real struggles that the team somehow managed to squeak something out of due to mentality of ourselves and our opponents.

Once fergie left, we still had those struggles, but failed to squeeze something out of them due to the psychological changes.

Another key thing that changed was the narrative surrounding the club and the knock-on effect that had on the United crowd, especially at home. Loads of elements changed, making it daft to try and paint everything as pointing to one factor - unless that factor is that Ferguson left.


So you didn't see any decline in the quality of football after Quieroz left around 2009? Results were maintained, but the style of it declined year on year.
I don't remember anything after Moscow being as good. But then saying that there were some spectacular performances at the end of the following season, and some even more spectacular ones at the start of 11/12. In ferguson's last season United scored 3 or more goals 20 times. To put that in perspective, in the season we last won the CL the team managed 3 or more goals 15 times, and in the Treble season they managed it 18 times.
 
Unread 04-08-2015, 06:46 AM
Tiberian
 
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Whatever problems in the squad Fergie passed on to the next manger, a £300 million spend over the next 2 years should have been enough to fix. We start this season with concerns over GK, the central defenders, creativity from wide and the striker position.

That 12/13 team is widely scorned but they should have knocked Madrid out of the CL. Over the course of the 2 games they were every bit as good as Madrid and that is with derided names like Jones, Welbeck, Evans, Cleverley, Rafael, Nani, Kagawa all playing major parts. It was a flawed squad but there was plenty of talent to work with. 89 points and 86 goals does not come from a shit team, they only won one of the last 4 league games as well, could have been a record points tally. We lost some senior names, but Giggs, Scholes and even Vidic were not major influences on that season, Vidic only started 22 games all season.
 
Unread 04-08-2015, 07:00 PM
Swagger
 
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Stella Fella
Spent

Darmian £12m
Schwienstiger £14m
Schneiderlin £22m?
Depay £25m
Romero £nil

Cost: £73m

Sold

ADM £44m
Nani £4m
RVP £4m
Henriquez £1m
Rafael £?

Incoming £53m

Outlay £20m

Hmmm Warchest of £200m - someone appears to have added to many zeros to the figure. Better get a move on Ed.
Considering the so called 44m from PSG probably hasn't landed in our account yet, you've made yourself look a bit of a @#%&!.

Can you do our wage bill next? Pre and post summer transfers?

Cheers
 
Unread 04-08-2015, 07:57 PM
The Stella Fella
 
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Swagger
Considering the so called 44m from PSG probably hasn't landed in our account yet, you've made yourself look a bit of a @#%&!.

Can you do our wage bill next? Pre and post summer transfers?

Cheers
On the same argument we haven't paid out the sums mentioned either as transfer payments are spread out over years so the net effect is probably still around the figures or not too far away.

But at least I only look a bit of a @#%&! eh? whereas ...............
 
Unread 05-08-2015, 09:42 AM
Denis Irwell
 
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Swagger
Considering the so called 44m from PSG probably hasn't landed in our account yet, you've made yourself look a bit of a @#%&!.

Can you do our wage bill next? Pre and post summer transfers?

Cheers

wtf? The @#%&! has left the building. You want a bank statement from the £#%&!ing club secretary?

Just a rough guide pal.
 
Unread 05-08-2015, 10:00 AM
The Stella Fella
 
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Denis Irwell
wtf? The @#%&! has left the building. You want a bank statement from the £#%&!ing club secretary?

Just a rough guide pal.
Glad someone got th jist of it pal
 
Unread 05-08-2015, 11:02 AM
Semantic Lisp
 
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiberian
Whatever problems in the squad Fergie passed on to the next manger, a £300 million spend over the next 2 years should have been enough to fix. We start this season with concerns over GK, the central defenders, creativity from wide and the striker position.

That 12/13 team is widely scorned but they should have knocked Madrid out of the CL. Over the course of the 2 games they were every bit as good as Madrid and that is with derided names like Jones, Welbeck, Evans, Cleverley, Rafael, Nani, Kagawa all playing major parts. It was a flawed squad but there was plenty of talent to work with. 89 points and 86 goals does not come from a shit team, they only won one of the last 4 league games as well, could have been a record points tally. We lost some senior names, but Giggs, Scholes and even Vidic were not major influences on that season, Vidic only started 22 games all season.
Exactly. Look at the team sheets from when Moyes took over and it's clear that the defensive issues LVG had were nothing like as complicated as the previous season, where the first manager post-Fergie was tasked with coming in and immediately phasing out Ferdinand, Vidic and Evra. Keeping those veterans sweet while constantly trying to find the solution was a big headache - Evra was the only one of the 3 who dealt with it professionally, truth be told. To see how far the issue went back look at the last few months of Fergie's time and the defensive combinations he tried as well.

LVG didn't have anything like the same headache - Ferdinand was ready to be put out to grass, and Vidic & Evra jumped ship.

It's absolutely baffling that the club didn't bring in major signings down the spine the summer Fergie left. But for LVG to have 3 transfer windows and a blank chequebook and still not bring in a leader for that defence is mind-blowing.
 
Unread 05-08-2015, 11:38 AM
morgan
 
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Quote:
It's absolutely baffling that the club didn't bring in major signings down the spine the summer Fergie left. But for LVG to have 3 transfer windows and a blank chequebook and still not bring in a leader for that defence is mind-blowing.
Herrera and Thiago were teed up for Moyes that summer, but he dithered

LVG brought in Rojo and Shaw last summer, and this window is not closed yet
 
Unread 05-08-2015, 11:49 AM
Semantic Lisp
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by morgan
Herrera and Thiago were teed up for Moyes that summer, but he dithered

LVG brought in Rojo and Shaw last summer, and this window is not closed yet
tbh I doubt that's the whole picture. He wanted Fabregas. Do you even for one second think he'd have turned down the chance to have Thiago and Herrera as well? Of course not ffs. This summer LVG wasn't told he can have Schneiderlin or Schweinsteiger was he? The club had just lost a manager of 26 years standing. They knew as well as the rest of the world we needed to buy big immediately, and if they really could get Thiago then they should have done it, as well as letting Moyes chase Fabregas. In fact if they really could get Thiago don't you think that would have helped turn the heads of other targets as well? A year later they opened the chequebook, but it was a year lost. Then again, bearing in mind the massive £#%&! ups and wasted time the signings of Falcao and Di maria have proved maybe it was no bad thing - Woodward still doesn't seem on top of it 2 years later ffs. Sign a bastard defensive leader.

re Rojo and Shaw - one doesn't play down the spine and the other has much to prove this season but really needs a quality partner.
 
Unread 05-08-2015, 12:11 PM
morgan
 
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Herrera had a buyout clause and could've been signed as soon as Moyes said the word

Thiago situation was probably more complicated, I'll give you that

But it was Moyes' first priority to improve the CM / spine in the summer post-Fergie, and he flopped it
 
Unread 05-08-2015, 01:09 PM
Semantic Lisp
 
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by morgan
Herrera had a buyout clause and could've been signed as soon as Moyes said the word

Thiago situation was probably more complicated, I'll give you that

But it was Moyes' first priority to improve the CM / spine in the summer post-Fergie, and he flopped it
It was LVG's last summer, too. Who did the club sign? Yep, Herrera.

You don't need to give me anything. My point is that the club were not ready to deal with Ferguson's departure. If they had players lined up they should have bought them and given them to the manager, followed by asking him if he wanted anyone else. As we have seen, they don't actually care if the signings flop and they have to take a hit. Well, that's nice and all, but if that's the way they wanted to go why did they not do it straight away?
 
Unread 05-08-2015, 01:22 PM
Whip Hubley
 
Thumbs up

I for one am glad, given the multiple reports from well placed sources that Moyes did not green light either Thiago or Herrera, that Throb can be certain it was the clubs issue and not the managers.
 
Unread 05-08-2015, 01:26 PM
morgan
 
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Quote:
You don't need to give me anything. My point is that the club were not ready to deal with Ferguson's departure. If they had players lined up they should have bought them and given them to the manager, followed by asking him if he wanted anyone else. As we have seen, they don't actually care if the signings flop and they have to take a hit. Well, that's nice and all, but if that's the way they wanted to go why did they not do it straight away?
The club clearly were not prepared for Ferguson’s departure, because they decided that Moyes could replace him.

Nevertheless it is not the club’s job to sign players and impose them on the manager, which seems to be what you’re suggesting
 
Unread 05-08-2015, 01:42 PM
utd99
 
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Thiago was only ever going to play for Guardiola. Makes me laugh tbh. People will ignore actual comments the player has made subsequently, ignore comments Guardiola has made, in favour of the 'don't really know anything' ITK story from the time.

Thiago was never coming, nor was Kroos.
 
Unread 05-08-2015, 01:47 PM
Semantic Lisp
 
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigMikeA
I for one am glad, given the multiple reports from well placed sources that Moyes did not green light either Thiago or Herrera, that Throb can be certain it was the clubs issue and not the managers.
And that's the internet in a nutshell

I've made the point I wanted to make very very clearly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by morgan
The club clearly were not prepared for Ferguson’s departure, because they decided that Moyes could replace him.

Nevertheless it is not the club’s job to sign players and impose them on the manager, which seems to be what you’re suggesting
Your first point is the obstacle that stops so many people viewing the whole scenario purely objectively.

The club had deals lined up for LVG in the shape of Shaw and Herrera. He barely even knew who Shaw was.
 
Unread 05-08-2015, 01:55 PM
S/Side.Red
 
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Semantic Lisp
Exactly. Look at the team sheets from when Moyes took over and it's clear that the defensive issues LVG had were nothing like as complicated as the previous season, where the first manager post-Fergie was tasked with coming in and immediately phasing out Ferdinand, Vidic and Evra. Keeping those veterans sweet while constantly trying to find the solution was a big headache - Evra was the only one of the 3 who dealt with it professionally, truth be told. To see how far the issue went back look at the last few months of Fergie's time and the defensive combinations he tried as well.

LVG didn't have anything like the same headache - Ferdinand was ready to be put out to grass, and Vidic & Evra jumped ship.

It's absolutely baffling that the club didn't bring in major signings down the spine the summer Fergie left. But for LVG to have 3 transfer windows and a blank chequebook and still not bring in a leader for that defence is mind-blowing.
I notice the club takes responsibility for summer 2013 and LvG takes responsibility for what's happened since

Moyes had the whole summer (and earlier) to work on targets. LvG arrived in mid July, some two months later, which is probably why his six signings included two the club had set up, two household names offered by Woodward, a player he already knows inside out and a defender he'd have studied as an opponent at the World Cup.

The big initial risk with van Gaal was always that, despite being a summer appointment, he'd have very little preparation time for the new season. The tour robbed him of the training he'd like to have done, and his World Cup participation made scouting impossible.

Besides, he inherited three youngish British defenders with big reputations as far as the club (and Ferguson) was concerned. I do think he wanted to give them a go. If we consider a defensive leader to be someone with experience and proven quality at the highest level, as well as the footballing characteristics LvG likes, they're not that easy to come by. I'd settle now for another quality youngster.

We've spent nearly £300m since Fergie left, but it's been a rush-job, which is a big part of the problem. That and a third of it going on Di Maria and £#%&!ing Fellaini.
 
Unread 05-08-2015, 01:59 PM
utd99
 
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiberian
Whatever problems in the squad Fergie passed on to the next manger, a £300 million spend over the next 2 years should have been enough to fix. We start this season with concerns over GK, the central defenders, creativity from wide and the striker position.

That 12/13 team is widely scorned but they should have knocked Madrid out of the CL. Over the course of the 2 games they were every bit as good as Madrid and that is with derided names like Jones, Welbeck, Evans, Cleverley, Rafael, Nani, Kagawa all playing major parts. It was a flawed squad but there was plenty of talent to work with. 89 points and 86 goals does not come from a shit team, they only won one of the last 4 league games as well, could have been a record points tally. We lost some senior names, but Giggs, Scholes and even Vidic were not major influences on that season, Vidic only started 22 games all season.
This is not Fifa, where when you buy a Falcao or a Di Maria, they play like Falcao or Di Maria. These are real people with real issues. If football has taught us anything it's that money does not always equal solution. It gives you a better chance for sure, but no guarantee.

You say "problems" with the squad that Fergie left, but again it's a surface argument. Delve deeper, list out the squad one by one and tell me which of those players you deem were good enough to have gotten us back to where we wanted to be. And to belittle the influence of a Giggs, Scholes Vidic and Ferdinand feels like moulding the facts to fit a predetermined conclusion. These were our leaders, our winners; been there done it, seen it all. Role models. Their effect, along with that of Ferguson of course, on our support players can never be underestimated. It was only when this influence in the changing room was removed that the inadequacies of the rest was laid bare. These were more than just a few "problems" we could throw some money at.

Also, you are savvy enough to know you cannot cherry pick one or two games, in this case the RM matches, to make the point that they were indeed good enough. Anyone can have a good game at any time, but what does that mean? If Jones has a £#%&!ing stormer against Spurs, is he suddenly the answer? None of these players you mentioned will play shit every game, it doesn't work that way. The question should be how many shit ones will they have over a 60 game season?

It doesn't require Welbeck, Smalling, Evans, Jones, Valencia et al to be 'good' to have a good team, nor does a good team automatically make the aforementioned players 'good'. You can win despite them, which is precisely what happened.
 
Unread 05-08-2015, 02:05 PM
S/Side.Red
 
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by utd99
This is not Fifa, where when you buy a Falcao or a Di Maria, they play like Falcao or Di Maria. These are real people with real issues. If football has taught us anything it's that money does not always equal solution. It gives you a better chance for sure, but no guarantee.

You say "problems" with the squad that Fergie left, but again it's a surface argument. Delve deeper, list out the squad one by one and tell me which of those players you deem were good enough to have gotten us back to where we wanted to be. And to belittle the influence of a Giggs, Scholes Vidic and Ferdinand feels like moulding the facts to fit a predetermined conclusion. These were our leaders, our winners; been there done it, seen it all. Role models. Their effect, along with that of Ferguson of course, on our support players can never be underestimated. It was only when this influence in the changing room was removed that the inadequacies of the rest was laid bare. These were more than just a few "problems" we could throw some money at.

Also, you are savvy enough to know you cannot cherry pick one or two games, in this case the RM matches, to make the point that they were indeed good enough. Anyone can have a good game at any time, but what does that mean? If Jones has a £#%&!ing stormer against Spurs, is he suddenly the answer? None of these players you mentioned will play shit every game, it doesn't work that way. The question should be how many shit ones will they have over a 60 game season?

It doesn't require Welbeck, Smalling, Evans, Jones, Valencia et al to be 'good' to have a good team, nor does a good team automatically make the aforementioned players 'good'. You can win despite them, which is precisely what happened.
It also would have helped if any of the young players in Fergie's squad were potential leaders.

The young spine of Jones/Smalling/Evans-Cleverley-Welbz was soft as shite mentally, if we're honest.
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