ETH surveillance 22/23

Originally Posted by Dr Stranger

And there’s a great variation in those circumstances and what one considers to be ‘managing circumstances well’. Hence why it’s case dependent. Unless you think every job is equally challenging and has exactly the same criteria for success? ETH is being judged. That’s what this whole thread is about.

Hence the word "fair".

What does he have control over and what does he not? He regularly says "no excuses" so let's start with that shall we? Where should be reasonably expect to be 18 months in? I'm pretty sure absolute shite isn't it.

Originally Posted by Sheik JaBooty

Hence the word "fair".

What does he have control over and what does he not? He regularly says "no excuses" so let's start with that shall we? Where should be reasonably expect to be 18 months in? I'm pretty sure absolute shite isn't it.

Agreed. Is anybody happy about this? You seem to be suggesting that people aren’t allowing you to make a judgment. They’re not. Go ahead. Where would you expect us to be 18 months in?

The manager got all the plaudits last season. Only fair he takes his share of the blame for this rubbish.

Originally Posted by Lok

How has he "more than earned another season"? By winning the carling Cup? Mourinho and LvG won more and got the chop.

He needs to start earning his wages and fix this mess. We all knew what was going to happen when we saw the team sheet. Why was The Scottish Player picked? Why the same system? He got forced to change it all Liverpool and it actually worked. A week later and he has swapped back.

Agree with this, he can’t get a tune out of these players so £#%&! whatever philosophy he apparently has. He’s gonna get himself sacked he needs to change his team selections, formation, substitutions …anything to get a run of decent results & build confidence because this lot are the most mentally weak / stupid we’ve seen for decades…steady the ship and get to the end of the season.

Originally Posted by Finport Red

The manager got all the plaudits last season. Only fair he takes his share of the blame for this rubbish.

This is also true

Last 6 games , we haven’t scored in 5 of them.


this is worse than lvg and mourinho.

It’s the aesthetic of ETH that is still clouding you lots vision.
the dutch managerial tactician. Despite everythijg going we should be much better.

he isn’t even a likeable manager from a fans perspective imagine the players.
Doesn’t have the charisma, players wouldnt give their all for him.

tactics fail
Squad management fail
Results fail
Entertainment

Absolutely nothing redeeming about this era.

Originally Posted by Finport Red

The manager got all the plaudits last season. Only fair he takes his share of the blame for this rubbish.

Because he overachieved. This is nearer to where we should be, based on how we’re run

We’re a shit show. We’ve got rain pouring through the roof and we’re poisoning the VIPs. We’re spiralling into debt, we hire the chancers and bean counters in senior football positions and lurch from one approach to another: either giving managers no freedom or expecting them to do everything. Signing ailing stars or cheap punts. Going from Scots line Fergie, to a coaches coach, to a pragmatist, to someone who ‘get us’ and now ETH.

All this while the club is up for sale and there’s literally zero communication about what is going on.

I’d say 8th in the league is about right for a horrifically run big club.

Saying this does not mean that Ten Hag isn’t making mistakes or could be doing better. He is and he should, but there’s a ceiling on just how much better we can be, and ten years of failure under various managers suggests as much. None have mounted a title challenge. None have sustained any quality past isolated, flirtatious seasons and all have hit the wall anywhere between 2 and 3 years in.

Criticism of ETH is perfectly valid, but IMO I’ll always find it hard to go full in on the manager as long as this ownership owns. and the more managers that fail at similar points, the more that feels right.

Originally Posted by Dr Stranger

Agreed. Is anybody happy about this? You seem to be suggesting that people aren’t allowing you to make a judgment. They’re not. Go ahead. Where would you expect us to be 18 months in?

Significantly better than this.

If he got sacked tomorrow, which I'm not advocating btw, could he really complain? I don't want him sacked, but I'm willing to admit at this point that it's not based on any confidence he's the right guy for the job. It's pure blind hope.

Originally Posted by Dr Stranger

Because he overachieved. This is nearer to where we should be, based on how we’re run

We’re a shit show. We’ve got rain pouring through the roof and we’re poisoning the VIPs. We’re spiralling into debt, we hire the chancers and bean counters in senior football positions and lurch from one approach to another: either giving managers no freedom or expecting them to do everything. Signing ailing stars or cheap punts. Going from Scots line Fergie, to a coaches coach, to a pragmatist, to someone who ‘get us’ and now ETH.

All this while the club is up for sale and there’s literally zero communication about what is going on.

I’d say 8th in the league is about right for a horrifically run big club.

Saying this does not mean that Ten Hag isn’t making mistakes or could be doing better. He is and he should, but there’s a ceiling on just how much better we can be, and ten years of failure under various managers suggests as much. None have mounted a title challenge. None have sustained any quality past isolated, flirtatious seasons and all have hit the wall anywhere between 2 and 3 years in.

Criticism of ETH is perfectly valid, but IMO I’ll always find it hard to go full in on the manager as long as this ownership owns. and the more managers that fail at similar points, the more that feels right.

We don't score no goals because our forwards are thinking about the roof or when the Ratcliff deal is going to be made official mate. They're the wrong forwards, and I include Bruno in that.

Originally Posted by Dr Stranger

Because he overachieved. This is nearer to where we should be, based on how we’re run

We’re a shit show. We’ve got rain pouring through the roof and we’re poisoning the VIPs. We’re spiralling into debt, we hire the chancers and bean counters in senior football positions and lurch from one approach to another: either giving managers no freedom or expecting them to do everything. Signing ailing stars or cheap punts. Going from Scots line Fergie, to a coaches coach, to a pragmatist, to someone who ‘get us’ and now ETH.

All this while the club is up for sale and there’s literally zero communication about what is going on.

I’d say 8th in the league is about right for a horrifically run big club.

Saying this does not mean that Ten Hag isn’t making mistakes or could be doing better. He is and he should, but there’s a ceiling on just how much better we can be, and ten years of failure under various managers suggests as much. None have mounted a title challenge. None have sustained any quality past isolated, flirtatious seasons and all have hit the wall anywhere between 2 and 3 years in.

Criticism of ETH is perfectly valid, but IMO I’ll always find it hard to go full in on the manager as long as this ownership owns. and the more managers that fail at similar points, the more that feels right.

Post.

Originally Posted by Sheik JaBooty

Significantly better than this.

If he got sacked tomorrow, which I'm not advocating btw, could he really complain? I don't want him sacked, but I'm willing to admit at this point that it's not based on any confidence he's the right guy for the job. It's pure blind hope.

I alluded to this is my initial post. Every manager has to tread that line between building for the long-term, but meeting the minimum requirement of the present. ETH is seriously pushing the latter right now. The ownership uncertainty is his friend right now, but that could change once Ratcliffe is in.

New owners with say on the footballing side rarely stick with whoever was in charge when they took over. Especially if the team isn’t doing well.

This season is dead. We aren’t getting top four. I imagine the priority for Ratcliffe will be sorting out ‘upstairs’ and that will take this season.

There’s not a chance he gets sacked before Ratcliffe comes in. And let’s be honest, there’s no great urgency. We’ve not got much on the line.

Originally Posted by Dr Stranger

Because he overachieved. This is nearer to where we should be, based on how we’re run

We’re a shit show. We’ve got rain pouring through the roof and we’re poisoning the VIPs. We’re spiralling into debt, we hire the chancers and bean counters in senior football positions and lurch from one approach to another: either giving managers no freedom or expecting them to do everything. Signing ailing stars or cheap punts. Going from Scots line Fergie, to a coaches coach, to a pragmatist, to someone who ‘get us’ and now ETH.

All this while the club is up for sale and there’s literally zero communication about what is going on.

I’d say 8th in the league is about right for a horrifically run big club.

Saying this does not mean that Ten Hag isn’t making mistakes or could be doing better. He is and he should, but there’s a ceiling on just how much better we can be, and ten years of failure under various managers suggests as much. None have mounted a title challenge. None have sustained any quality past isolated, flirtatious seasons and all have hit the wall anywhere between 2 and 3 years in.

Criticism of ETH is perfectly valid, but IMO I’ll always find it hard to go full in on the manager as long as this ownership owns. and the more managers that fail at similar points, the more that feels right.

a great post.

Originally Posted by Sheik JaBooty

Significantly better than this.

If he got sacked tomorrow, which I'm not advocating btw, could he really complain? I don't want him sacked, but I'm willing to admit at this point that it's not based on any confidence he's the right guy for the job. It's pure blind hope.



We don't score no goals because our forwards are thinking about the roof or when the Ratcliff deal is going to be made official mate. They're the wrong forwards, and I include Bruno in that.

See, I don’t buy that. The failure on the pitch and the standards off it are intrinsically linked.

Our forwards don’t score goals because they’re aren’t good enough (at least not yet). The standard of the team has fallen. Just like the standard of the stadium, the standard of the boardroom and the standard of the chicken thighs.

Because of the standards our own owners.

You reap what you sow. You can’t isolate the micro without considering the macro IMO.

Originally Posted by Dr Stranger

Because he overachieved. This is nearer to where we should be, based on how we’re run

We’re a shit show. We’ve got rain pouring through the roof and we’re poisoning the VIPs. We’re spiralling into debt, we hire the chancers and bean counters in senior football positions and lurch from one approach to another: either giving managers no freedom or expecting them to do everything. Signing ailing stars or cheap punts. Going from Scots line Fergie, to a coaches coach, to a pragmatist, to someone who ‘get us’ and now ETH.

All this while the club is up for sale and there’s literally zero communication about what is going on.

I’d say 8th in the league is about right for a horrifically run big club.

Saying this does not mean that Ten Hag isn’t making mistakes or could be doing better. He is and he should, but there’s a ceiling on just how much better we can be, and ten years of failure under various managers suggests as much. None have mounted a title challenge. None have sustained any quality past isolated, flirtatious seasons and all have hit the wall anywhere between 2 and 3 years in.

Criticism of ETH is perfectly valid, but IMO I’ll always find it hard to go full in on the manager as long as this ownership owns. and the more managers that fail at similar points, the more that feels right.

To be honest, I’m sick of the fallback to ‘we’re badly run’. Yes, we are, but we still spend loads of money and the only thing that seems to change every year and with every manager is that our expectation of what is doable diminishes.

Moyes was booted out for missing on top four, Van Gaal was booted out after winning the fa cup, mourinho a few months after finishing second, Ole because his team was doing better than this lot are now.

The idea that a club who spends as much as we have should be happy enough to be eighth in the league is ridiculous.

Originally Posted by Dr Stranger

I alluded to this is my initial post. Every manager has to tread that line between building for the long-term, but meeting the minimum requirement of the present. ETH is seriously pushing the latter right now. The ownership uncertainty is his friend right now, but that could change once Ratcliffe is in.

New owners with say on the footballing side rarely stick with whoever was in charge when they took over. Especially if the team isn’t doing well.

This season is dead. We aren’t getting top four. I imagine the priority for Ratcliffe will be sorting out ‘upstairs’ and that will take this season.

There’s not a chance he gets sacked before Ratcliffe comes in. And let’s be honest, there’s no great urgency. We’ve not got much on the line.

All I see are a bunch of decisions that are going hopelessly wrong, repeatedly, players that are regressing if anything, and a 'team' that looks clueless and disorganized. It's not a good look for any manager tbf.

Originally Posted by Finport Red

To be honest, I’m sick of the fallback to ‘we’re badly run’. Yes, we are, but we still spend loads of money and the only thing that seems to change every year and with every manager is that our expectation of what is doable diminishes.

Moyes was booted out for missing on top four, Van Gaal was booted out after winning the fa cup, mourinho a few months after finishing second, Ole because his team was doing better than this lot are now.

The idea that a club who spends as much as we have should be happy enough to be eighth in the league is ridiculous.

Correct. We keep saying "no excuses" then sliding a few stealth excuses in anyway. So which is it?

Originally Posted by Finport Red

To be honest, I’m sick of the fallback to ‘we’re badly run’. Yes, we are, but we still spend loads of money and the only thing that seems to change every year and with every manager is that our expectation of what is doable diminishes.

Moyes was booted out for missing on top four, Van Gaal was booted out after winning the fa cup, mourinho a few months after finishing second, Ole because his team was doing better than this lot are now.

The idea that a club who spends as much as we have should be happy enough to be eighth in the league is ridiculous.

Who's happy?

At the end of the day this grand mess is 10 years in the making. And as much as people love to keep nailing it on the hapless bloke in the dugout every couple of years - it's actually a little bit more complex and nuanced than that.

Who's making the decisions? Who's steering the club at the top? In the grand scheme of things on whom does the responsibility for all this chaos eventually fall?

Originally Posted by Sheik JaBooty

All I see are a bunch of decisions that are going hopelessly wrong, repeatedly, players that are regressing if anything, and a 'team' that looks clueless and disorganized. It's not a good look for any manager tbf.

I don’t disagree with that. I think we just disagree on why it is and where the ultimate responsibility lies.

Another reason I don’t go full in on these managed is because it feels like letting the Glazers off the hook.

It’s like parents with shit kids.

“Did the parents throw the stones through the windows themselves?”

No, but if all five kids do it…

Originally Posted by Finport Red

The idea that a club who spends as much as we have should be happy enough to be eighth in the league is ridiculous.

Which is absolutely not what was said.

Originally Posted by Finport Red

To be honest, I’m sick of the fallback to ‘we’re badly run’.

I think we’re all sick of all of this tbh, mate

By no measure is EtH doing a good job this season. There is nothing positive to say about the way he is currently managing this football club.

The club is a mess and hopefully that is all about to get better. But if it does, what has EtH done this season to show he deserves to work under what will hopefully be a better structure?

Ineos will want to bring in their own man and rightly so. It's a results business and the results are the worst in living memory. They would have to be absolutely crazy to keep him. If they did, I'd be extremely worried about their competency and could only conclude that nothing will change under them.

Originally Posted by Sheik JaBooty

All I see are a bunch of decisions that are going hopelessly wrong, repeatedly, players that are regressing if anything, and a 'team' that looks clueless and disorganized. It's not a good look for any manager tbf.



Correct. We keep saying "no excuses" then sliding a few stealth excuses in anyway. So which is it?

Who is saying “no excuses”? A rallying cry from our manager in post match interviews doesn’t mean there are actually no excuses. He’s trying to apply and pull up the standard, which is what he should do. Doesn’t mean we’re there.

It’s a nice bullish thing to say, but it doesn’t mean anything. We all know there’s plenty of reasons to fail right now.

Originally Posted by Lok

By no measure is EtH doing a good job this season. There is nothing positive to say about the way he is currently managing this football club.

The club is a mess and hopefully that is all about to get better. But if it does, what has EtH done this season to show he deserves to work under what will hopefully be a better structure?

Ineos will want to bring in their own man and rightly so. It's a results business and the results are the worst in living memory. They would have to be absolutely crazy to keep him. If they did, I'd be extremely worried about their competency and could only conclude that nothing will change under them.

It’s another reason this takeover dragging out is so frustrating. If we’d have done something in the summer, we’d have a different outlook on the current manager. We’d be looking at a very different season and if ETH was doing this badly with new owners, the decision would be a lot clearer.

Instead, there’s a huge cloud hanging over him over this season’s performance… and how much of it is excusable/acceptable based on the issues surrounding the club.

Is this season the normal standard? Last season? Somewhere in between?

Ultimately, I agree that he’ll likely be moved on in the summer. New owners rarely keep the current boss and that’s the bottom line.

Originally Posted by Dr Stranger

Because he overachieved. This is nearer to where we should be, based on how we’re run

We’re a shit show. We’ve got rain pouring through the roof and we’re poisoning the VIPs. We’re spiralling into debt, we hire the chancers and bean counters in senior football positions and lurch from one approach to another: either giving managers no freedom or expecting them to do everything. Signing ailing stars or cheap punts. Going from Scots line Fergie, to a coaches coach, to a pragmatist, to someone who ‘get us’ and now ETH.

All this while the club is up for sale and there’s literally zero communication about what is going on.

I’d say 8th in the league is about right for a horrifically run big club.

Saying this does not mean that Ten Hag isn’t making mistakes or could be doing better. He is and he should, but there’s a ceiling on just how much better we can be, and ten years of failure under various managers suggests as much. None have mounted a title challenge. None have sustained any quality past isolated, flirtatious seasons and all have hit the wall anywhere between 2 and 3 years in.

Criticism of ETH is perfectly valid, but IMO I’ll always find it hard to go full in on the manager as long as this ownership owns. and the more managers that fail at similar points, the more that feels right.

You can't be serious

So when he says "no excuses" what he really means is "my excuses are X, Y and Z".

I think we both £#%&!ing know that he should be able to field an academy team that plays better than the shit we're watching this season mate. Sick of it; sick of the 'mirror looking', 'not good enough (but tune in next week when we'll be not good enough again)', 'not following rules', blah, blah £#%&!ing blah....

Originally Posted by Chris Quayd

You can't be serious

Are you doing a Finport here?

Where Manchester United (the name) should be and where Manchester United ( the reality of how we’re run) should be are two very different things