Ole

Originally Posted by Tronics

I'm not in love with Poch he was just the easiest example to point to

But I still think going forward we will need a manager who can coach a team of okay players into world-beaters AND be okay with not getting all their preferred transfer targets, who that is i don't know.

The guy from RB the other night wouild be a great fit, I'd prefer him over poch.

The longer the Manager survives
The more obvious it is that it’s the Glazers and their attitude to the club that is holding us back.

Originally Posted by Patty_b

At least you're expectations are realistic.



From outside the top four, to third and a few semifinals?

Cleared a tonne of shit @#%&!s out, and a few more to follow?

Currently 5 points off the top with a game in hand and currently on a record breaking run of away wins?

You're off your head mate.

All of this is right, but are you not concerned by some of the decisions recently? Can’t both be true?

Originally Posted by Dr Stranger

100% this. A lot of the clubs traditions are actually Fergie traditions. Nobody under the age of 35 knows anything else.

Part of the problem is being caught between trying to replicate it (Moyes, Ole) and going for the best/proven (LVG, Jose).

There is too much stock put into ‘giving managers time’. It’s a very easy thing to say, with little to no argument other than “let’s wait and see” necessary.

And when a manager is seemingly hastily sacked and their replacement does well, it’s quickly forgotten. I remember people kicking off that Nigel Adkins was unfairly sacked by Southampton when he was replaced by Pochettino.

The assessment should at least be ongoing. You don’t just get 3 years, no questions asked. It’s fair to expect progress after 2 years to be better than year 1, and year 1 to be better than six months into the job.

With Ole, there is some improvement, but there’s serious question marks about whether it’s enough and whether his work in the job has installed any confidence that he is the man to progress us to the next level (competing for titles, competing in the quarters and beyond of the CL). A club with high standards should always be making that judgement. That’s not disloyal, it’s just the way it is. It’s standards and they are Standards that Ole himself is quick to remind us of and standards that he was raised with while he was here.

Club traditions mean nothing to the people who matter nor does winning trophies, although it would be nice.

Ole's job is dependent on CL qualification thats all the people that matter are bothered about.

Originally Posted by utd99

All of this is right, but are you not concerned by some of the decisions recently? Can’t both be true?

Not really no.

And it can be true that he has not taken us backwards and that he was made some wrong decisions

Everyone makes wrong decisions, he's not some sort of omnipotent football machine god that isn't capable of getting decisions wrong.

Fergie made wrong decisions, or decisions that fans disagreed with.

Naagalsman has made wrong decisions. We did spank him and his team 5-0 remember. He can't be that £#%&!ing infallible if our caretaker, out of his depth PE teacher manager handed him his £#%&!ing arse like that.

Poch has made wrong decisions, and will do in the future.

So far between you and Tronics, we are demanding a manager that:

1. Turns average players into world beaters
2. Never makes a mistake
3. Bring glorious success without any real backing in the transfer window

Do you ever get the impression that some of our fans are demanding a bit too much, and that your expectations are slightly too high. And that the grass isn't always greener?

Originally Posted by utd99

All of this is right, but are you not concerned by some of the decisions recently? Can’t both be true?

I’m not sure a few dodgy substitutions are grounds for giving someone the sack tbf.

It’s absolutely bizarre this is still being debated, by the same old people. He’s not going anywhere, unless our league form takes a massive and sustained nosedive.

These experienced managers that you crave for, are they the likes of LVG and Mourinho who were hounded out without getting us a league title?

Originally Posted by Patty_b

Not really no.

And it can be true that he has not taken us backwards and that he was made some wrong decisions

Everyone makes wrong decisions, he's not some sort of omnipotent football machine god that isn't capable of getting decisions wrong.

Fergie made wrong decisions, or decisions that fans disagreed with.

Naagalsman has made wrong decisions. We did spank him and his team 5-0 remember. He can't be that £#%&!ing infallible if our caretaker, out of his depth PE teacher manager handed him his £#%&!ing arse like that.

Poch has made wrong decisions, and will do in the future.

So far between you and Tronics, we are demanding a manager that:

1. Turns average players into world beaters
2. Never makes a mistake
3. Bring glorious success without any real backing in the transfer window

Do you ever get the impression that some of our fans are demanding a bit too much, and that your expectations are slightly too high. And that the grass isn't always greener?

I believe one of the most dangerous things you can do is keep lowering standards and expectations. Wenger did that; worked out well for him.

For example, I keep habouring the expectation that you’re a person you can actually have a normal conversation with rather than a snidey toxic little #@&%!. More fool me.

Originally Posted by utd99

I believe one of the most dangerous things you can do is keep lowering standards and expectations. Wenger did that; worked out well for him.

Mate, have a quick look at where we've been since 2013, and realise that setting your expectations the same as they were then is just setting yourself up for a fall. No idea what any of that has to do with Wenger

Originally Posted by utd99

For example, I keep habouring the expectation that you’re a person you can actually have a normal conversation with rather than a snidey toxic little #@&%!. More fool me.

No idea what was snidey about that, or why it touched such a nerve

Originally Posted by Ethers

I’m not sure a few dodgy substitutions are grounds for giving someone the sack tbf.

It’s absolutely bizarre this is still being debated, by the same old people. He’s not going anywhere, unless our league form takes a massive and sustained nosedive.

I’m Ole in - always will be. If we stop asking questions then we’re putting individuals above the club, the opposite of what Fergie, Ole etc preach.

Originally Posted by Patty_b

Not really no.

And it can be true that he has not taken us backwards and that he was made some wrong decisions

Everyone makes wrong decisions, he's not some sort of omnipotent football machine god that isn't capable of getting decisions wrong.

Fergie made wrong decisions, or decisions that fans disagreed with.

Naagalsman has made wrong decisions. We did spank him and his team 5-0 remember. He can't be that £#%&!ing infallible if our caretaker, out of his depth PE teacher manager handed him his £#%&!ing arse like that.

Poch has made wrong decisions, and will do in the future.

So far between you and Tronics, we are demanding a manager that:

1. Turns average players into world beaters
2. Never makes a mistake
3. Bring glorious success without any real backing in the transfer window

Do you ever get the impression that some of our fans are demanding a bit too much, and that your expectations are slightly too high. And that the grass isn't always greener?

Tbf pal you recently admitted you went to Ole out after the Turkish defeat

Originally Posted by AK14

Tbf pal you recently admitted you went to Ole out after the Turkish defeat

Yeah, I was disappointed the result and came to my senses by morning.

Originally Posted by Patty_b

Not really no.

And it can be true that he has not taken us backwards and that he was made some wrong decisions

Everyone makes wrong decisions, he's not some sort of omnipotent football machine god that isn't capable of getting decisions wrong.

Fergie made wrong decisions, or decisions that fans disagreed with.

Naagalsman has made wrong decisions. We did spank him and his team 5-0 remember. He can't be that £#%&!ing infallible if our caretaker, out of his depth PE teacher manager handed him his £#%&!ing arse like that.

Poch has made wrong decisions, and will do in the future.

So far between you and Tronics, we are demanding a manager that:

1. Turns average players into world beaters
2. Never makes a mistake
3. Bring glorious success without any real backing in the transfer window

Do you ever get the impression that some of our fans are demanding a bit too much, and that your expectations are slightly too high. And that the grass isn't always greener?

I think there’s wrong decisions, which all managers will make and then there’s broader errors about how the team should set up, how we prepare for games etc.

If he £#%&!s up a sub, I don’t really care. Even in the last few weeks we’ve seen good subs v Southampton and West Ham and bad ones the other night. A bigger concern for me is that he still doesn’t know his best team, his best system and this is reflected in our current performance level. We’re a VERY reactive team. We play well when the game dictates we need to, rarely from the start and rarely ‘organically’. Coming back from behind is a good trait to have, but right now it seems it’s all we have. It’s not sustainable.

The set up the other night was truly alarming. Ole and Maguire were bullish pre-match about how we are ready, we know Liepzig well and we expect to progress. That opening 15 minutes was the polar opposite of that. We looked utterly lost and were dead within 12 minutes.

If we were six months into his tenure, ok. But two years in, I would expect to see a team who at least looks like they know what they are going. And if we get outplayed, so be it. But we were an absolute shambles. I don’t think it’s spoiled or reactionary to expect better than that, especially when it’s far from an isolated incident.

This isn’t to say he isn’t doing any good and all the PE Teacher stuff is the other end of the spectrum and downright disrespectful to the guy. The perception of him compared to Arteta and Lampard (similar experience) is ridiculous, but it doesn’t need to be one extreme or the other. Pointing out concerns isn’t ‘hounding him out’ or even means he’s doing a bad job, but any manager in any job should be under ongoing scrutiny based on the job they’re doing.

We are at the point now where I think we can all acknowledge that this is a team that is more entertaining than it was 2 years ago and some of the football and promise it shows at times is exciting and cause for optimism, but beyond that, we have to be able to ask the question “is he capable of doing more?”, and that’s all that is happening here.

I have concerns that the best we’re seeing in this team is the best he can get out of them and we will continue to go through little phases of good football , new optimism before another hapless display requires another response.

I don’t expect this team to go on a bad enough to make his position untenable (weeeeeeey!) at any point this season and a decision will be made in the summer based on the basics: CL qualification, trophies.

Originally Posted by utd99

I’m Ole in - always will be. If we stop asking questions then we’re putting individuals above the club, the opposite of what Fergie, Ole etc preach.

Yeah you say that, and then you write the equivalent of War & Peace every single day about why it’s important we hold him to high standards, questioning whether he’s the right man for the job etc. It’s incessant.

Originally Posted by utd99

I believe one of the most dangerous things you can do is keep lowering standards and expectations. Wenger did that; worked out well for him.

For example, I keep habouring the expectation that you’re a person you can actually have a normal conversation with rather than a snidey toxic little #@&%!. More fool me.

You're debating with a guy who argued until he was blue in the face that Ole was right to leave fred on, even after it was pointed out to him that he himself had called for Fred to be subbed.

You cannot reason with that level of idiocy.

Originally Posted by Dr Stranger

I think there’s wrong decisions, which all managers will make and then there’s broader errors about how the team should set up, how we prepare for games etc.

If he £#%&!s up a sub, I don’t really care. Even in the last few weeks we’ve seen good subs v Southampton and West Ham and bad ones the other night. A bigger concern for me is that he still doesn’t know his best team, his best system and this is reflected in our current performance level. We’re a VERY reactive team. We play well when the game dictates we need to, rarely from the start and rarely ‘organically’. Coming back from behind is a good trait to have, but right now it seems it’s all we have. It’s not sustainable.

The set up the other night was truly alarming. Ole and Maguire were bullish pre-match about how we are ready, we know Liepzig well and we expect to progress. That opening 15 minutes was the polar opposite of that. We looked utterly lost and were dead within 12 minutes.

If we were six months into his tenure, ok. But two years in, I would expect to see a team who at least looks like they know what they are going. And if we get outplayed, so be it. But we were an absolute shambles. I don’t think it’s spoiled or reactionary to expect better than that, especially when it’s far from an isolated incident.

This isn’t to say he isn’t doing any good and all the PE Teacher stuff is the other end of the spectrum and downright disrespectful to the guy. The perception of him compared to Arteta and Lampard (similar experience) is ridiculous, but it doesn’t need to be one extreme or the other. Pointing out concerns isn’t ‘hounding him out’ or even means he’s doing a bad job, but any manager in any job should be under ongoing scrutiny based on the job they’re doing.

We are at the point now where I think we can all acknowledge that this is a team that is more entertaining than it was 2 years ago and some of the football and promise it shows at times is exciting and cause for optimism, but beyond that, we have to be able to ask the question “is he capable of doing more?”, and that’s all that is happening here.

I have concerns that the best we’re seeing in this team is the best he can get out of them and we will continue to go through little phases of good football , new optimism before another hapless display requires another response.

He's only had one full season, so personally I think it's a bit of a stupid question to be asking in the first place at this time.

And, as you say, we saw more entertaining football with more promise in that full season than we did under the most successful manager in the world who is currently at the top of league with Spurs (for now).

And you can say "he's had two years", but he hasn't really has he. He took over a squad of shit@#%&!s that were on their arse thanks to the miserable bastard halfway through a piss poor season and revitalised them. Then took us to third in his first full season while shifting out a lot of shite fans wanted moved on. We are only a few months into his second full season, and we're 5 points off the top with a game in hand.

All in all not bad imo.

Originally Posted by atticusgrinch

You're debating with a guy who argued until he was blue in the face that Ole was right to leave fred on, even after it was pointed out to him that he himself had called for Fred to be subbed.

You cannot reason with that level of idiocy.

I changed my mind and decided he was right to leave him on, as I am well in my right to do

You're still lusting over Mourinho. Now that's a level of idiocy that no-one can compete with.

Originally Posted by Patty_b

He's only had one full season, so personally I think it's a bit of a stupid question to be asking in the first place at this time.

And, as you say, we saw more entertaining football with more promise in that full season than we did under the most successful manager in the world who is currently at the top of league with Spurs (for now).

And you can say "he's had two years", but he hasn't really has he. He took over a squad of shit@#%&!s that were on their arse thanks to the miserable bastard halfway through a piss poor season and revitalised them. Then took us to third in his first full season while shifting out a lot of shite fans wanted moved on. We are only a few months into his second full season, and we're 5 points off the top with a game in hand.

All in all not bad imo.

I’m sorry, but if we’re hiring him permanently on the strength of half a season, then we also can’t ignore it when considering his whole time here. I know Covid has screwed up the timeline, but let’s not change the basics: He’s been here two years this month. Simple.

Even with that in mind, every manager should be getting assessed as they go. I think we agree on what he has done well and that is certainly cause for optimism and one for the ‘pro’ column, but there are also elements that are a concern (pointed out in my previous post). As 99ers says, we have to have standards and this is something Ole himself is quick to underline. He comes from an era of the highest standards, talks a lot about it in his press conferences, so I’m sure it applies to himself too. We shouldn’t just wave away concerns based on what we see with a simple “give him time” or “see where we are at the end of the season”. Part of being a manager of a massive club is dealing with the future and the immediate standards expected. Put it this way, if we lose our next 10 games, he would be sacked and would have no complaints. Should we just give time regardless?

Originally Posted by Ethers

Yeah you say that, and then you write the equivalent of War & Peace every single day about why it’s important we hold him to high standards, questioning whether he’s the right man for the job etc. It’s incessant.

100%

‘AWB was diabolical the other day’ becomes a small novel concluding along the lines, ‘how can any manager worth his salt with the expectations of this great club expect to keep his job and not see that’ etc etc.

It is incessant and it’s constantly loaded with questions that are all about the managers ability to manage united.

Originally Posted by Dr Stranger

I’m sorry, but if we’re hiring him permanently on the strength of half a season, then we also can’t ignore it when considering his whole time here. I know Covid has screwed up the timeline, but let’s not change the basics: He’s been here two years this month. Simple.

He was cleaning up a mess that had been left at the club, by the previous manager and he did a good job of it, didn't he? He got a permanent contract after losing 1 game in 13.

You know that it's not really fair to judge that second half of the season he came into due to the state the club was in at the time, even if the end result reflects well on him tbf.

Originally Posted by Dr Stranger

Even with that in mind, every manager should be getting assessed as they go. I think we agree on what he has done well and that is certainly cause for optimism and one for the ‘pro’ column, but there are also elements that are a concern (pointed out in my previous post). As 99ers says, we have to have standards and this is something Ole himself is quick to underline. He comes from an era of the highest standards, talks a lot about it in his press conferences, so I’m sure it applies to himself too. We shouldn’t just wave away concerns based on what we see with a simple “give him time” or “see where we are at the end of the season”. Part of being a manager of a massive club is dealing with the future and the immediate standards expected. Put it this way, if we lose our next 10 games, he would be sacked and would have no complaints. Should we just give time regardless?

If he loses 10 games in a row should he be sacked? Probably yeah. But he's not going to, so it's a stupid question to ask really.

All the rest of your post is about 'standards', and I respectfully refer you to my earlier responses to 99ers.

Originally Posted by Patty_b

He was cleaning up a mess that had been left at the club, by the previous manager and he did a good job of it, didn't he? He got a permanent contract after losing 1 game in 13.

You know that it's not really fair to judge that second half of the season he came into due to the state the club was in at the time, even if the end result reflects well on him tbf.


If he loses 10 games in a row should he be sacked? Probably yeah. But he's not going to, so it's a stupid question to ask really.

All the rest of your post is about 'standards', and I respectfully refer you to my earlier responses to 99ers.

If you can use that half a season to judge that he did well, and if it can be used to give him a three year contract, then it doesn’t get magically wiped away when we’re considering the entirety of his tenure.

He did well in that spell, agreed, so we begin there and that’s a plus for Ole. That makes it two years.

You’ve missed the point on the ‘ten games’ thing. I don’t think we will either, but the point is that there IS a point where the immediate situation will supersede any potential future success, and more importantly, it’s proof that managers are being assessed as they go, not just on some blind faith that they must be given some arbitrarily assigned amount of time to get it right. It could be ten games, five games, or simply a compounding amount of examples of something not being right. And people will have their own tipping points. Saying ‘he needs time’ regardless of what is actually happening in front of us is as extreme as wanting him sacked after a handful of games.

Look at Arteta. A handful of games ago, he was winning at our place. He’s won an FA Cup. Yet, their form is so bad and their standards are dropping so low, that if it doesn’t pick up soon, he’ll be gone and he can have no complaints. Arsenal can’t be involved in a relegation battle. That’s standards and it can happen very quickly. That’s just nature of the beast for these guys.

Ultimately, I don’t disagree with you in terms of the good he’s done and the positives about this team, and I’m sure that’s what is bringing the board votes of confidence we’re hearing about.