Ole has to be sacked TONIGHT

Originally Posted by Dr Stranger

I’m sure there were plenty of Chelsea fans who were backing Lampard and wanted to see him given time. There wasn’t much more out there this time last year than there is now.

What they did was hire someone with clear pedigree and he instantly elevated them to something akin to what their squad looks like.

There is now no doubt that they made the right decision and he is clearly a cut above Lampard.

We need to do the same. As sparky says, Ole was right at the time he was hired. He’s done a good job getting us to this point, but it’s becoming increasingly clear he simply is not good enough as a manager to take us any further. That doesn’t have to be a big deal or even a failure. It just is what it is.

The club don’t seem to see this.

I’m mostly concerned by the clubs attitude. They seem hell bent on backing Ole regardless of what they see in front of them. Why have his backtroom staff been given new contracts? Why leak that he is 100% safe? Why is he 100% safe? He shouldn’t be. Where is this level of faith actually coming from? He’s never had the credentials, so the defence for him has always been that you could defend the job he’s actually doing. As soon as that isn’t the case, he’s in trouble. And we’re at that point now. It’s getting harder and harder to defend the job he’s currently doing. Not what’s gone before, but where we are NOW.

We’re now operating on blind faith and loyalty to a player we like and I don’t think the club has the ambition to change it.

The only thing that will shift it will be the fans turning or the players turning. Or both.

from a marketing POV - Ole was a dream.... Legend returning after the SAF era ended and the messy transition period.... and it worked for a while and the fans loved the romance...

but in terms of performance?

let's be honest it's not been great and i just cannot get over the EL final defeat... he's clearly not good enough for what we need as MUFC....

the marketing bods will hope he can turn it around and win something - which will bring in the money and add to the narrative...

but let's be honest it's a gamble and experiment that's been mainly a failure - it's given us transient joy, but long term we'll be no better off than if we had stuck with Jose

it's like ending a marriage where you're not really arguing or even disliking each other - it's just not working and you can't bring yourself to admit it.

Originally Posted by Coracao

Especially when there's numerous in the Premier League who are better managers

Past few weeks I've watched Brighton and then Brentford. Teams whose entire first 11 probably cost less than one Pogba and yet both looked better organised and more motivated than our lot.

I'm done with blaming the players, and that includes Pogba.

Originally Posted by elhombre

it's like ending a marriage where you're not really arguing or even disliking each other - it's just not working and you can't bring yourself to admit it.

Perfect analogy

Originally Posted by elhombre

from a marketing POV - Ole was a dream.... Legend returning after the SAF era ended and the messy transition period.... and it worked for a while and the fans loved the romance...

but in terms of performance?

let's be honest it's not been great and i just cannot get over the EL final defeat... he's clearly not good enough for what we need as MUFC....

the marketing bods will hope he can turn it around and win something - which will bring in the money and add to the narrative...

but let's be honest it's a gamble and experiment that's been mainly a failure - it's given us transient joy, but long term we'll be no better off than if we had stuck with Jose

it's like ending a marriage where you're not really arguing or even disliking each other - it's just not working and you can't bring yourself to admit it.

It depends what you consider his job to be. He was initially hired to lift spirits and then to change how we go about things. I think he’s done that, but now comes the need to win. He needed to build his house from scratch. He’s done the blueprints, He has his tools all laid out nicely in front of him…. And he doesn’t know what to do.

His own job has changed since he’s been here based on what he’s done and I don’t think he’s capable of fulfilling it, as it stands.

No harm done, we’re in a good position, but now we need to seriously compete and win.

We can’t continue on blind faith and loyalty. That’s how you go 25-30 years without a title.

Next season will be ten years since we won the league. Arsenal are closing in on 20 and they’re a great example of what happens when you just aim for top four.

Originally Posted by shenwen

Not even close to full squad rebuild needed. We have a good squad. Even our midfield isn't a million miles away from top 4 standard. But we've been playing square pegs in round holes for two seasons now.

Needs to end.

This attitude of "who we going to get in instead?" is defeatist. We can't predict the future, obviously, but sometimes you have to take a risk or you get stuck in mediocrity, which is where we are now (relative to the players we have). Sticking with Ole is accepting failure and given the huge salary he is on, it's a ludicrous stance.

If we're going to compare ourselves to other clubs going forward, then signings will have to made. Not a full squads worth, but considerable changes.

The two teams that have been competing for the league the past four seasons, and look like they'll be competing for the league come the end of this season are Liverpool and City. Both of their managers came into good squads with talented players (in City's case, Premier League winners), but both needed to cut out the rot and replace them with players they trusted to do the job for them. And rightly so, because the recruits they brought in are probably their best players over the course of each season.

Even when Conte won the league with Chelsea, he inherited a squad that had won the league two seasons prior, and had downed tools the season before for the miserable one. Then after one good season where they won the League, he left them stranded in the table, and they've barely come close to winning the league in the four seasons since.

Anyone who thinks that someone could come into this squad and take it to challenging for the Premier League without wholesale replacing the shit we have, for players they can trust and get the best out of is living in a dreamland. It's exactly what Liverpool did, and it's exactly what City did. And they're the two teams that look like they're going to run away with the league every season.

If we just want to potentially challenge for the odd Cup, then no, we probably won't need many changes to the squad. Just hope we have some consistency and a bit of luck. But if we want to compete in the league, then we definitely will.

If Ole goes, then we're going to have a squad assembled by Fergie, Moyes, LVG, Mourinho, Woodward and Ole. It's no surprised that the £#%&!ing thing looks unbalanced as £#%&!. It's easy to just point at a manager and say 'it's all his fault, anyone else would do much better', but that excuse is going to be worn out soon enough when a new guy comes in and struggles to get a tune out of a squad cobbled together by 6 different people who all had their own ideas as to what they want from the players they brought in.

Originally Posted by shenwen

I'm done with blaming the players, and that includes Pogba.

The ultimate square peg. Whichever manager doesn’t have to figure out what to do with him will have a much easier time of it.

Originally Posted by Dr Stranger

It depends what you consider his job to be. He was initially hired to lift spirits and then to change how we go about things. I think he’s done that, but now comes the need to win. He needed to build his house from scratch. He’s done the blueprints, He has his tools all laid out nicely in front of him…. And he doesn’t know what to do.

His own job has changed since he’s been here based on what he’s done and I don’t think he’s capable of fulfilling it, as it stands.

No harm done, we’re in a good position, but now we need to seriously compete and win.

We can’t continue on blind faith and loyalty. That’s how you go 25-30 years without a title.

Next season will be ten years since we won the league. Arsenal are closing in on 20 and they’re a great example of what happens when you just aim for top four.

and that is my point.... we're becoming the frog in a pan of water that is slowly heating up.

just pull the trigger now and move on...

Originally Posted by elhombre

and that is my point.... we're becoming the frog in a pan of water that is slowly heating up.

just pull the trigger now and move on...

Yep.

This club always needs to strike a balance: we have a style, a degree of loyalty, the ‘United way’ - whatever you want to call it, but we also win.

Big clubs don’t tolerate long phases of mediocrity.

Our current squad id say is better than the one Klopp inherited at Liverpool by far. We’re stacked in attack. We actually have a right winger (who Ole keeps playing on the left). Our defence is pretty solid, AWB could be upgraded. Our midfield, I think 2 good signings changes everything there. A defensive mid and a box to box. Rice and Bellingham is the dream. We’ve been crying out for midfielders for ages now though, especially a defensive one. Mad that Matic is our only real option there.

So that’s 2 definite signings we need to make, and a right back that tbh, I think could do well under the right management. Pochettino did absolute wonders with Rose, Walker, Davies etc. Not endorsing Pochettino for the job, just making a point about some players thriving under certain managers.

Anyway, 2 signings isn’t what I’d call a total overhaul. We’d have a balanced squad, and if a manager could get them gelling together then I see no reason why we wouldn’t be challenging with the players we have.

Originally Posted by Patty_b

I


Anyone who thinks that someone could come into this squad and take it to challenging for the Premier League without wholesale replacing the shit we have, for players they can trust and get the best out of is living in a dreamland. It's exactly what Liverpool did, and it's exactly what City did. And they're the two teams that look like they're going to run away with the league every season.

If we just want to potentially challenge for the odd Cup, then no, we probably won't need many changes to the squad. Just hope we have some consistency and a bit of luck. But if we want to compete in the league, then we definitely will.

Wholesale? Not buying that at all. A couple of additions and of course the added ability to use footballers to the best of their ability and have a firm tactical vision and we'd be competing. No question.

Where we need wholesale changes is to the coaching and backroom staff.

Originally Posted by Patty_b

If we're going to compare ourselves to other clubs going forward, then signings will have to made. Not a full squads worth, but considerable changes.

The two teams that have been competing for the league the past four seasons, and look like they'll be competing for the league come the end of this season are Liverpool and City. Both of their managers came into good squads with talented players (in City's case, Premier League winners), but both needed to cut out the rot and replace them with players they trusted to do the job for them. And rightly so, because the recruits they brought in are probably their best players over the course of each season.

Even when Conte won the league with Chelsea, he inherited a squad that had won the league two seasons prior, and had downed tools the season before for the miserable one. Then after one good season where they won the League, he left them stranded in the table, and they've barely come close to winning the league in the four seasons since.

Anyone who thinks that someone could come into this squad and take it to challenging for the Premier League without wholesale replacing the shit we have, for players they can trust and get the best out of is living in a dreamland. It's exactly what Liverpool did, and it's exactly what City did. And they're the two teams that look like they're going to run away with the league every season.

If we just want to potentially challenge for the odd Cup, then no, we probably won't need many changes to the squad. Just hope we have some consistency and a bit of luck. But if we want to compete in the league, then we definitely will.

If Ole goes, then we're going to have a squad assembled by Fergie, Moyes, LVG, Mourinho, Woodward and Ole. It's no surprised that the £#%&!ing thing looks unbalanced as £#%&!. It's easy to just point at a manager and say 'it's all his fault, anyone else would do much better', but that excuse is going to be worn out soon enough when a new guy comes in and struggles to get a tune out of a squad cobbled together by 6 different people who all had their own ideas as to what they want from the players they brought in.

I take your point, but I think you’re overstating the ‘misfit’ factor of our squad. It’s not long ago that we were discussing if this was the best squad we’ve ever had.

Any manager coming in will need to make their own changes, of course, but when you compare what we have now to the squads that LVG, Jose and Ole inherented, it ain’t bad.

One of the good things Ole has done is sign quality and focus on personality. I don’t think there’s many trouble makers in out squad.

And these aren’t reasons enough to not do something. Hiring risk, changing players, these are all basic dynamics of getting a new manager. The biggest risk we can take is allowing this to continue

It will get worse over the next few weeks, we are on our way out of the CL and there will be no title challenge this year.
We have to hold our nerve.
There is no obvious alternative out there right now by Christmas there might be.
But be realistic the owners are the owners they will try to keep Pogba, who’s attitude is at the root of so many of our problems, the team will still contain so many overcompensated underachievers.
A new manager won’t make Maguire quicker or AWB a competent right back the time to improve the coaching has gone.
Ronaldo raised expectations but is only good in a team that consistently gets the ball to him. being bounced into signing him is another example of the inexperience/ lack of nouse that characterises the running of the club under the Glazers.

It’s all been downhill since James left.

Personally I couldn’t give a £#%&! about dynasties. They’re not going to happen any more anyway. I’ve been far more concerned about the club falling into the trap of constant manager churn - ripping up and starting again every couple of years with all that entails. It’s very much worth avoiding.

However, I agree that with what Ole’s achieved, there’s no longer a need to rip it all up and start again. I was really hopeful for this season and was happy to be patient but it’s shocked me how bad it’s been, tbh.

So I think it’s become clear that while he’s achieved the task of getting rid of the dross, stabilising the squad and making the team competitive again, he’s not the man to take it to the next level. He’s taken a team that finished second, added class players like Ronaldo, Varane and Sancho and actually made them worse ffs.

I wouldn't even think about judging a lot of these players until they've played under a proper manager.

Ole's like a rabbit caught in the headlights. He didn't have problems like this in Norway. Hoofing the ball up to the strikers probably goes a long way up in the Artic Circle. I wouldn't know though. I've never watched the Norwegian league.

He pandered to all the big name players. Some of the big name players want to do well now though. He's done his best bless him. Ultimately though, his best was shit.

When the new manager comes in, we'll be playing 4-3-3 and Beeky and Dalot will be starters.* **

* TWICI

** Assuming it's not another really bad manager.

What's TWICI?

Originally Posted by Dr Stranger

I take your point, but I think you’re overstating the ‘misfit’ factor of our squad. It’s not long ago that we were discussing if this was the best squad we’ve ever had.

Any manager coming in will need to make their own changes, of course, but when you compare what we have now to the squads that LVG, Jose and Ole inherented, it ain’t bad.

One of the good things Ole has done is sign quality and focus on personality. I don’t think there’s many trouble makers in out squad.

And these aren’t reasons enough to not do something. Hiring risk, changing players, these are all basic dynamics of getting a new manager. The biggest risk we can take is allowing this to continue

I'm not saying it is, but there seems to be a lot of fans who think that if we just replace the manager the season will be 'saved', and that the squad we have can compete to win the league.

It's nowhere near as simple as that. By all means replace the manager, but if we're going down that route again, we need to do it properly. Either recruit a proper director of football who oversees any and all building of the team and style of play, and bring in managers we think can carry out the vision. Or bring in a manager that we're happy to properly back to build a team that he wants long term.

Instead of doing either of those things, we're doing the shit bits of both. We're cycling through managers, while backing them to build their own squads. It's £#%&!ing stupid. If we're going to cycle through managers, get someone in place above the managers to take charge of all the recruitment and how we're going to play.

If we're going to bring in a manager to build his own team, we can't start chopping and changing them every few years when things look shit.

If we sack Ole and bring in a manager just because he's won some things and expect him to get this squad to play the football he wants them to play, and compete at being the best because we've spent a lot on players wanted by other managers, then it's destined to fail.

Originally Posted by d_knight

What's TWICI?

he's a little tin £#%&!ing know-all from buck rogers.

Originally Posted by d_knight

What's TWICI?

That’s when I called it.

Basically calling something on the internet, date stamping it and then being able to refer to the said post in later exchanges.

Saffers possibly has a fair number stored up atm.

Trying to recreate Ferguson is doomed to fail - nobody can run a modern club as he did. The pressures and complications are huge more so at OT than anywhere else - hence why players and managers fail.

The other end of the sale is the chop and change that requires constant player and manager churn. This short termism is pretty disruptive.

There is a middle ground which is to have a solid structure above the coaching that stays in place and drives the player recruitment strategy. A top class Director of Football and the same for the hands on player recruitment.

What's disappointed me most about Ole is that he seems to want to shoehorn Pogba into the team at any cost despite him not fitting in. Playing him in a 2 with Matic seemed incredibly naive/optimistic.

It's almost as if the club want him to sign and don't want to upset him. I'd argue what to do with Pogba is the key question if he stays. But if he does sign any new manager has the same problem.

Maguire didn't look fit yesterday which doesn't say much about how Ole rates Bailly.

Originally Posted by redhegemony

What's disappointed me most about Ole is that he seems to want to shoehorn Pogba into the team at any cost despite him not fitting in. Playing him in a 2 with Matic seemed incredibly naive/optimistic.

It's not just Pogba, it's the favourites that are guaranteed a start no matter how bad their form is. There's not much point having a squad if you do not use it outside of league cup games.

Originally Posted by redhegemony

Maguire didn't look fit yesterday which doesn't say much about how Ole rates Bailly.

It's fine to think Bailly is shit, but then why did he get a four year deal last season? You can't complain about backups if you are talking them up, giving them contracts or in the case of VDB signing them.