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View Poll Results: Do you support the RMT strike
Yes, of course, I'm not a class traitor 58 89.23%
No, I'm a scab 7 10.77%
Voters: 65. You may not vote on this poll

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Unread 23-06-2022, 12:13 PM
redhegemony
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jem View Post
I'm always happy to explain or support anything I've claimed.

maybe you or someone could explain the ways in which the government has been so involved when the government's whole argument is that it shouldn't get involved. with evidence.
you don't think the Government 'unofficially' involves itself in industrial disputes? one thing I never had you down as was naive.
 
Unread 23-06-2022, 12:20 PM
Switching Off
 
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Unread 23-06-2022, 12:40 PM
jem
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redhegemony View Post
you don't think the Government 'unofficially' involves itself in industrial disputes? one thing I never had you down as was naive.
oh. some people think I am. it's easier than providing a supporting argument.

I think it is quite possible that the government unofficially involves itself. I'd just like see proof rather than wild accusations.

switchers says deals are being done where the government isn't involved. it doesn't really make sense for the government only to be involved in one strand which then looks isolated. it's just as "clear" that agreements are being done with unions other than the rmt. there is no point in starting with your conclusion.

my view is not that the government/employers or the union must be right. it is that a sensible balance needs to be stuck between legitimate arguments, some of which may be incompatible, in order to avoid strikes.
 
Unread 23-06-2022, 12:48 PM
redhegemony
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jem View Post
oh. some people think I am. it's easier than providing a supporting argument.

I think it is quite possible that the government unofficially involves itself. I'd just like see proof rather than wild accusations.

switchers says deals are being done where the government isn't involved. it doesn't really make sense for the government only to be involved in one strand which then looks isolated. it's just as "clear" that agreements are being done with unions other than the rmt. there is no point in starting with your conclusion.

my view is not that the government/employers or the union must be right. it is that a sensible balance needs to be stuck between legitimate arguments, some of which may be incompatible, in order to avoid strikes.
Um the nature of secret/unofficial involvement is that it sort of tends to be secret/unofficial it's not Penn and Teller reveals...

David Hart carried out the liaison role for Thatcher, during the miner's strike, with the NCB. It would be pretty surprising f there wasn't some 'civil servant' talking to the highest levels of Network rail about 'national security' issues.
 
Unread 23-06-2022, 01:07 PM
no fun
 
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Originally Posted by Switching Off View Post
...especially if our brave boys in the army are tied up in Ukraine
 
Unread 23-06-2022, 01:28 PM
tatty
 
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Originally Posted by no fun View Post
...especially if our brave boys in the army are tied up in Ukraine
After seeing how many Tackleberry’s we’ve got on the forum we don’t need the army.
 
Unread 23-06-2022, 01:37 PM
jem
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redhegemony View Post
Um the nature of secret/unofficial involvement is that it sort of tends to be secret/unofficial it's not Penn and Teller reveals...

David Hart carried out the liaison role for Thatcher, during the miner's strike, with the NCB. It would be pretty surprising f there wasn't some 'civil servant' talking to the highest levels of Network rail about 'national security' issues.
ah, right. so the rmt can say whatever it likes and it instantly has credibility. I get you.


*taps nose*
 
Unread 23-06-2022, 01:56 PM
redhegemony
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jem View Post
ah, right. so the rmt can say whatever it likes and it instantly has credibility. I get you.


*taps nose*
And the Government and Network Rail can deny it (pulls ear lobe). Its what Governments do.
 
Unread 23-06-2022, 02:12 PM
jem
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redhegemony View Post
And the Government and Network Rail can deny it (pulls ear lobe). Its what Governments do.
https://www.utdforum.com/forum/showp...&postcount=177
 
Unread 23-06-2022, 03:20 PM
TravellingRed
 
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Originally Posted by jem View Post
I do realise this. do you have an actual case or just more flannel? you do realise the whole framework could be changed to improve everyone's lives? in the mean time, it's only commuters suffering. unnecessarily.
So in the world and country we live in, today, in reality, not alternate jem world of rainbows and unicorns, how should the railway workers protect their pay, terms and conditions and jobs? They are currently being attacked, the union negotiations with the companies have failed, you are opposed to them striking. What is your solution? To just accept it? Tell the rail workers if they don't like it f*** off? Write a stern letter?
 
Unread 23-06-2022, 03:34 PM
Sharders
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TravellingRed View Post
So in the world and country we live in, today, in reality, not alternate jem world of rainbows and unicorns, how should the railway workers protect their pay, terms and conditions and jobs? They are currently being attacked, the union negotiations with the companies have failed, you are opposed to them striking. What is your solution? To just accept it? Tell the rail workers if they don't like it f*** off? Write a stern letter?
Up-skill, do better at school, get a proper degree, better qualifications, create businesses, apply for other jobs, re-train, work hard. I think that's how it works.
 
Unread 23-06-2022, 03:38 PM
jem
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TravellingRed View Post
So in the world and country we live in, today, in reality, not alternate jem world of rainbows and unicorns, how should the railway workers protect their pay, terms and conditions and jobs? They are currently being attacked, the union negotiations with the companies have failed, you are opposed to them striking. What is your solution? To just accept it? Tell the rail workers if they don't like it f*** off? Write a stern letter?
ok, you silly dinosaur... I am not going to apologise for not only wanting the world to be a better place, but also having ideas that would make it so.

in answer to your question, in the absence of any binding independent arbitration, my view on the strike is (i) the disruption can't be justified; (ii) taking a view on whether the strike is reasonable or not would necessitate me taking a much closer look at all of the issues involved, rather than listening to snarky comments from mick lynch and grant shapps. I don't trust either of them. steve montgomery seems reasonable, though. he might seem less so, the more I get to know him.

my view is that, whilst there might be a good case for increasing wages, there seems a very good case for changing working practices as well (and I have listened to a fair amount of commentary on that). if there aren't going to be any compulsory redundancies, an agreement should be forthcoming.

but the point is that most people aren't considering the case on its merits. it's predictable that certain people (one of whom could pass for you in the right light) just support the unions, no matter what. regime change is not a legitimate reason for a strike. we have elections for that.
 
Unread 23-06-2022, 03:47 PM
Sharders
 
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Jem is right (correct, as well as wing). The whole thing is nothing about "fair" pay etc, it's simply a class war. Every time someone on the radio is interviewed it's "the tories, business owners, employers" that slips in - no one mentions the railways. They just come across as angry uneducated men who haven't achieved what they want in life but expect everything. I'd hate to be that bitter.
 
Unread 23-06-2022, 03:49 PM
TravellingRed
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jem View Post
ok, you silly dinosaur... I am not going to apologise for not only wanting the world to be a better place, but also having ideas that would make it so.

in answer to your question, in the absence of any binding independent arbitration, my view on the strike is (i) the disruption can't be justified; (ii) taking a view on whether the strike is reasonable or not would necessitate me taking a much closer look at all of the issues involved, rather than listening to snarky comments from mick lynch and grant shapps. I don't trust either of them. steve montgomery seems reasonable, though. he might seem less so, the more I get to know him.

my view is that, whilst there might be a good case for increasing wages, there seems a very good case for changing working practices as well (and I have listened to a fair amount of commentary on that). if there aren't going to be any compulsory redundancies, an agreement should be forthcoming.

but the point is that most people aren't considering the case on its merits. it's predictable that certain people (one of whom could pass for you in the right light) just support the unions, no matter what. regime change is not a legitimate reason for a strike. we have elections for that.
So the disruption isn't justified but you don't really know what it's over. Good position.
 
Unread 23-06-2022, 03:56 PM
red red robbo
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharders View Post
Up-skill, do better at school, get a proper degree, better qualifications, create businesses, apply for other jobs, re-train, work hard. I think that's how it works.
And when the whole country are brain boxes with degrees coming out of our ears and are all CEOs of multinational conglomerates, who the f*** is going to clean the trains

Quote:
Originally Posted by jem View Post
ok, you silly dinosaur... I am not going to apologise for not only wanting the world to be a better place, but also having ideas that would make it so.

in answer to your question, in the absence of any binding independent arbitration, my view on the strike is (i) the disruption can't be justified; (ii) taking a view on whether the strike is reasonable or not would necessitate me taking a much closer look at all of the issues involved, rather than listening to snarky comments from mick lynch and grant shapps. I don't trust either of them. steve montgomery seems reasonable, though. he might seem less so, the more I get to know him.

my view is that, whilst there might be a good case for increasing wages, there seems a very good case for changing working practices as well (and I have listened to a fair amount of commentary on that). if there aren't going to be any compulsory redundancies, an agreement should be forthcoming.

but the point is that most people aren't considering the case on its merits. it's predictable that certain people (one of whom could pass for you in the right light) just support the unions, no matter what. regime change is not a legitimate reason for a strike. we have elections for that.
The trouble with all your ideas is they a predicated on not starting here. They all need a massive amount of pre-existing common sense and general bonhomie between people of all types that simply is not there. You need to start offering solutions that can be implemented from where we are, not where you would like to be, a place where many of the problems we discuss wouldn't even occur.

There is nothing wrong with modernisation, but it has to be introduced in a way that is sympathetic to the people it most affects, those whose jobs will be eliminated. For a start they could offer no compulsory redundancies. There are apparently plenty of applications for voluntary redundancy and it is quite an old workforce from what I hear. With the number being around 2,000, the rail companies could easily afford to carry an extra few hundred jobs than are strictly necessary. It's always good to have a bit of spare capacity, especially when introducing new technology which WILL go wrong at some point, and when it does you will need bodies on platforms to sort it out.

You're wrong about the elections again, as I pointed out yesterday. We, the general public, have no means to instigate a general election, it is totally within the control of the PM. If enough people want a GE that them withdrawing their labour would force that to happen, then it should happen.
 
Unread 23-06-2022, 04:07 PM
windy waffles
 
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The man just does not get flustered.
 
Unread 23-06-2022, 04:13 PM
jem
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TravellingRed View Post
So the disruption isn't justified but you don't really know what it's over. Good position.
if that's what you have taken from this conversation, further discussion would probably not be productive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by red red robbo View Post
The trouble with all your ideas is they a predicated on not starting here. nope. they are predicated on not being happy with where we are and accepting that it should continue. They all need a massive amount of pre-existing common sense and general bonhomie between people of all types that simply is not there. nope. they just need legislation. You need to start offering solutions that can be implemented from where we are, not where you would like to be, a place where many of the problems we discuss wouldn't even occur.

There is nothing wrong with modernisation, but it has to be introduced in a way that is sympathetic to the people it most affects, those whose jobs will be eliminated. For a start they could offer no compulsory redundancies.
the letter to the union apparently only speaks of voluntary redundancies and natural attrition. I agree that it wouldn't be much of a reach to specify no compulsory redundancies, but they didn't suggest any. There are apparently plenty of applications for voluntary redundancy and it is quite an old workforce from what I hear. With the number being around 2,000, the rail companies could easily afford to carry an extra few hundred jobs than are strictly necessary. It's always good to have a bit of spare capacity, especially when introducing new technology which WILL go wrong at some point, and when it does you will need bodies on platforms to sort it out. if they haven't all died inspecting rails.

You're wrong about the elections again, as I pointed out yesterday. We, the general public, have no means to instigate a general election, it is totally within the control of the PM. If enough people want a GE that them withdrawing their labour would force that to happen, then it should happen.
I disagree. saying I am wrong doesn't make me wrong. it's a matter of opinion. mine is that, if you don't like the electoral process, you lobby to get it changed. and you do it democratically. not by a minority being unruly enough to make the country ungovernable. I won't say you are wrong, but I completely disagree with you.
 
Unread 23-06-2022, 04:15 PM
Dr Stranger
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by windy waffles View Post
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5r4P3CFfYh0

The man just does not get flustered.
“You seem irritated”

He really doesn’t. You’d like him to be, but he isn’t
 
Unread 23-06-2022, 04:22 PM
red red robbo
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jem View Post
if that's what you have taken from this conversation, further discussion would probably not be productive.

I disagree. saying I am wrong doesn't make me wrong. it's a matter of opinion. mine is that, if you don't like the electoral process, you lobby to get it changed. and you do it democratically. not by a minority being unruly enough to make the country ungovernable. I won't say you are wrong, but I completely disagree with you.
History is not on your side.
 
Unread 23-06-2022, 04:23 PM
windy waffles
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Stranger View Post
“You seem irritated”

He really doesn’t. You’d like him to be, but he isn’t
Exactly. He wasn't irritated one bit. It was Piers who was irritated because he couldn't get him to admit he was planning on taking over the world ffs.
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