Ole

[quote=Chester Road;5308490]If he fails...he's already failed, he's been failing since he got the job permanently

we are sleepwalking into disaster he needs to be sacked[/QUOTE


Regardless of if/when he's sacked, the point still stands.

Originally Posted by Zorg

There’s another constant...

Pure?

Originally Posted by AK14

Ashley Young

Originally Posted by Dr Stranger

Except it isnt.

The 'no experience' shout suggests that the opposite would be ideal.

It doesn't get much more experienced than LVG and Jose and they failed.

We need to look at the 'type' of manager and the job they're actually doing.

If Ole fails, it won't be any more about his lack of experience than it was about LVG and Jose's plentiful experience.

They failed because of what they did when they were here. Ole will be the same.

Did they? Or were they on the way to succeeding before they were unceremoniously sacked?

I only ask this because according to the 'red is right' cultists on here, 'success' is a destination you get to; some arbitrary day in the future that the current manager is taking us towards now. We just have to sit there and wait, enduring a never ending stream of awful, humiliating results, until one day success arrives.

I always thought succeeding was a process rather than an end point and that you should have evidence that you're having success on your journey to reach your maximum potential. Sort of like Liverpool did when they reached cup finals and then worked their way up the league.

I didn't realise that you had to be absolutely £#%&!ing god awful and fail miserably for months on end until it all suddenly falls into place one day.

lvg was sacked too early imo but it was so painful to watch our football. bossing ineffectual possession then losing one nil late on. it's a pity jose became available tbh because we were evolving.

Originally Posted by Sparky***

Did they? Or were they on the way to succeeding before they were unceremoniously sacked?

I only ask this because according to the 'red is right' cultists on here, 'success' is a destination you get to; some arbitrary day in the future that the current manager is taking us towards now. We just have to sit there and wait, enduring a never ending stream of awful, humiliating results, until one day success arrives.

I always thought succeeding was a process rather than an end point and that you should have evidence that you're having success on your journey to reach your maximum potential. Sort of like Liverpool did when they reached cup finals and then worked their way up the league.

I didn't realise that you had to be absolutely f***ing god awful and fail miserably for months on end until it all suddenly falls into place one day.

great post but as usual the Ostrich Reds will ignore the reality because Ole's lala land is a much better place to be

Originally Posted by Sparky***

Did they? Or were they on the way to succeeding before they were unceremoniously sacked?

I only ask this because according to the 'red is right' cultists on here, 'success' is a destination you get to; some arbitrary day in the future that the current manager is taking us towards now. We just have to sit there and wait, enduring a never ending stream of awful, humiliating results, until one day success arrives.

I always thought succeeding was a process rather than an end point and that you should have evidence that you're having success on your journey to reach your maximum potential. Sort of like Liverpool did when they reached cup finals and then worked their way up the league.

I didn't realise that you had to be absolutely f***ing god awful and fail miserably for months on end until it all suddenly falls into place one day.

That's fair, but a different point.

Rightly or wrongly, their time came to a premature end due to what they did here and how it was perceived. Their experience didnt matter a jot.

Just as Ole's lack of experience won't be. He wasn't hired on it and he won't be sacked on it.

Ole will be judged accordingly and will last less time than either of them, at this rate.

Originally Posted by Dr Stranger

That's fair, but a different point.

Rightly or wrongly, their time came to a premature end due to what they did here and how it was perceived. Their experience didnt matter a jot.

Just as Ole's lack of experience won't be. He wasn't hired on it and he won't be sacked on it.

Ole will be judged accordingly and will last less time than either of them, at this rate.

I don’t think it’s going to go the same way; I think we’re going to stick with him even if it gets hairy.

Originally Posted by Dr Stranger

Ole will be judged accordingly and will last less time than either of them, at this rate.

He's already done more than a year.......

Originally Posted by utd99

I don’t think it’s going to go the same way; I think we’re going to stick with him even if it gets hairy.

'gets hairy'

ffs this season has been hairier than a team full of Fellainis

Originally Posted by Dr Stranger

Pure?

And billpig.

And the Glazers.

Originally Posted by red in cumbria

He's already done more than a year.......

And?

Originally Posted by utd99

I don’t think it’s going to go the same way; I think we’re going to stick with him even if it gets hairy.

I think he'll get a little more leeway than most, but it'll only be allowed to get so bad.

It's a spiral too. The worse we get, the more he'll lose the dressing room, the fans and itll be past the point of any apparent good will.

We're not there yet, but bottom half, out of all the cups and all principles and patience will be abandoned.

The present still matters.

Originally Posted by Dr Stranger

I think he'll get a little more leeway than most, but it'll only be allowed to get so bad.

It's a spiral too. The worse we get, the more he'll lose the dressing room, the fans and itll be past the point of any apparent good will.

We're not there yet, but bottom half, out of all the cups and all principles and patience will be abandoned.

The present still matters.

It’s not medieval times mate.

Moyes - 9 months.
Ignored Fergie, replaced the backroom, upset players, signed Fellaini for over the odds. Absolute failure.

Van Gaal - 22 months. Won the FA Cup, spent a shed load on players with mixed results. Failed to get a tune out of big signings like Memphis, Di Maria and Falcao. Downfall was Jose becoming available and Woodward being a snake.

Mourinho - 29 months. Won the Europa League and League Cup. Again, spent a lot on players, some proving more of a success than others. Not sure what the truth is about his final months but Woodward wasn't keen to back him according to reports.

Three experienced managers, two very successful throughout their careers.

What did each inherit though? Moyes inherited a team that had just won the league by a distance and could have built on it. His decision making was piss poor and he lost the changing room by and large as well as former favourites leaving - Pat, Rio, Vidic, etc. Not only that but he saddled us with long contracts for big wages for several players.

Van Gaal inherited a squad low on morale as a result. He spent big because he felt he had to and because Ed let him, mainly to get us back into the CL. Felt like we ended up with a bit of a misfit squad that was slowly coming together. If he'd have committed to a five-year contract at the start, he'd still be here now imho; it's only because Ed wanted a more long-term commitment that he got unceremoniously binned off.

Jose had a reasonable set of players. Not sure they were his type of player but he had a decent squad on paper (yeah, yeah, shame we play on grass, etc.). I'd imagine a fair few of the players were stunned that we were on yet another manager at this point. Still not sure what went wrong - did he decide he didn't want to stay because of family reasons first or football reasons? Clearly Ed was annoying him and he brought things to a head.

Ole's signed three players, all decent enough, with Wan Bissaka looking a class act and James a very promising young player. He's trying to improve things (he got rid of Fellaini thank God) and needs a good January and summer window.

There's one consistent thread across here though; how many of them have got rid of the dead wood that we can see being regularly called out from the fans?
Smalling, Jones, Rojo, Valencia, Young, Lingard, etc all around for far too long for most people's liking. The squad is still bloated in a bad way - too many players are overly injury-prone. Are they physically or mentally brittle though? Who will take them on at the wages we pay them too?

Keepers:
De Gea, Romero, Grant plus juniors - looks fine, certainly not our biggest problem by a long shot

Defence:
Wan Bissaka, Bailly, Jones, Rojo, Maguire, Lindelof, Tuanzebe, Fosu Mensah, Dalot, Young, Shaw, Williams. That's 12 players who have made appearances for us this season. If you're keeping 8 (based on two for each position), then we're looking at losing (as well as Smalling) Jones, Rojo, Young and one more at the end of this season and that assumes no further signings at the back. Massively bloated squad there and needs surgery.

Midfield:
Pogba, Mata, Lingard, Pereira, Fred, Matic, The Scottish Player, James, Gomes, Garner, Chong.
Lingard not good enough, Matic's legs have gone, Pogba's spirit has left the club with Raiola and Chong and Pereira don't look the grade. Keep The Scottish Player, James, Fred and Garner, loan out Gomes and Chong and get three world class midfielders in - a right-sided one, a creative 10 and a holding player.

Forwards:
Rashford, Martial, Greenwood. We're an experienced goalscorer light imo; not bothered who, so long as they want to be here. Rashford is wide left, but Greenwood and Martial for me aren't good enough yet to be lone strikers. We either change the staff or the system.

The game has moved on from 4-4-2 and Fergie's magnificent teams. We were spoiled with trophies almost non-stop for nearly a quarter of a century. We have to accept that we are now playing catch up with Liverpool and City. Forget what has been spent before Ole. Just like Robbo said about the title in the late 80s/early 90s - it's not the current squad's fault that the title hadn't been won since 67, it's their problem now. The nearly £1billion spent since Fergie left isn't Ole's fault. He's spent far better than most if you look at it with any sense of logic. We were moaning in May about needing a new centre-back, not wanting Valencia or Young and right-back and needing more pace down the flanks. He's addressed all three. Let's see the squad we've got at the end of the summer - we're going to find it tough to sign the players we want in January in all honesty.

25 different outfield players used in the league already this season. Injuries, giving players a chance to prove themselves and finding out who we want to keep has to be part of that. We aren't going to get instant success, but we can build steadily toward it rather than moan about wanting Allegri in. To do what? Managing Juventus has been like managing Celtic over the last decade - it's been harder to £#%&! the title up than win it.

Originally Posted by Sparky***

Did they? Or were they on the way to succeeding before they were unceremoniously sacked?

I only ask this because according to the 'red is right' cultists on here, 'success' is a destination you get to; some arbitrary day in the future that the current manager is taking us towards now. We just have to sit there and wait, enduring a never ending stream of awful, humiliating results, until one day success arrives.

I always thought succeeding was a process rather than an end point and that you should have evidence that you're having success on your journey to reach your maximum potential. Sort of like Liverpool did when they reached cup finals and then worked their way up the league.

I didn't realise that you had to be absolutely £#%&!ing god awful and fail miserably for months on end until it all suddenly falls into place one day.

Yeah well Instant gratification. You want the rebuild but just don’t have the patience for it. We can’t just smash everyone 5-0. Our squad is exactly where it should be on all fronts. Fergies first few years were awful.

Originally Posted by Sparky***

Did they? Or were they on the way to succeeding before they were unceremoniously sacked?

Could say the same thing about Ole if you and the 'cultists' get your wish and he's sacked.

Originally Posted by Sparky***

I only ask this because according to the 'red is right' cultists on here, 'success' is a destination you get to; some arbitrary day in the future that the current manager is taking us towards now. We just have to sit there and wait, enduring a never ending stream of awful, humiliating results, until one day success arrives.

I always thought succeeding was a process rather than an end point and that you should have evidence that you're having success on your journey to reach your maximum potential. Sort of like Liverpool did when they reached cup finals and then worked their way up the league.

I didn't realise that you had to be absolutely £#%&!ing god awful and fail miserably for months on end until it all suddenly falls into place one day.

Well sometimes you do mate, sorry. Decades have passed between league titles for many successful teams. United as a club do not have a device right to success just because some of our support stomp their feet and throw a wobbler because it can take time to turn things around.

Suck it up.

Originally Posted by 92ToBury

Moyes - 9 months.
Ignored Fergie, replaced the backroom, upset players, signed Fellaini for over the odds. Absolute failure.

Van Gaal - 22 months. Won the FA Cup, spent a shed load on players with mixed results. Failed to get a tune out of big signings like Memphis, Di Maria and Falcao. Downfall was Jose becoming available and Woodward being a snake.

Mourinho - 29 months. Won the Europa League and League Cup. Again, spent a lot on players, some proving more of a success than others. Not sure what the truth is about his final months but Woodward wasn't keen to back him according to reports.

Three experienced managers, two very successful throughout their careers.

What did each inherit though? Moyes inherited a team that had just won the league by a distance and could have built on it. His decision making was piss poor and he lost the changing room by and large as well as former favourites leaving - Pat, Rio, Vidic, etc. Not only that but he saddled us with long contracts for big wages for several players.

Van Gaal inherited a squad low on morale as a result. He spent big because he felt he had to and because Ed let him, mainly to get us back into the CL. Felt like we ended up with a bit of a misfit squad that was slowly coming together. If he'd have committed to a five-year contract at the start, he'd still be here now imho; it's only because Ed wanted a more long-term commitment that he got unceremoniously binned off.

Jose had a reasonable set of players. Not sure they were his type of player but he had a decent squad on paper (yeah, yeah, shame we play on grass, etc.). I'd imagine a fair few of the players were stunned that we were on yet another manager at this point. Still not sure what went wrong - did he decide he didn't want to stay because of family reasons first or football reasons? Clearly Ed was annoying him and he brought things to a head.

Ole's signed three players, all decent enough, with Wan Bissaka looking a class act and James a very promising young player. He's trying to improve things (he got rid of Fellaini thank God) and needs a good January and summer window.

There's one consistent thread across here though; how many of them have got rid of the dead wood that we can see being regularly called out from the fans?
Smalling, Jones, Rojo, Valencia, Young, Lingard, etc all around for far too long for most people's liking. The squad is still bloated in a bad way - too many players are overly injury-prone. Are they physically or mentally brittle though? Who will take them on at the wages we pay them too?

Keepers:
De Gea, Romero, Grant plus juniors - looks fine, certainly not our biggest problem by a long shot

Defence:
Wan Bissaka, Bailly, Jones, Rojo, Maguire, Lindelof, Tuanzebe, Fosu Mensah, Dalot, Young, Shaw, Williams. That's 12 players who have made appearances for us this season. If you're keeping 8 (based on two for each position), then we're looking at losing (as well as Smalling) Jones, Rojo, Young and one more at the end of this season and that assumes no further signings at the back. Massively bloated squad there and needs surgery.

Midfield:
Pogba, Mata, Lingard, Pereira, Fred, Matic, The Scottish Player, James, Gomes, Garner, Chong.
Lingard not good enough, Matic's legs have gone, Pogba's spirit has left the club with Raiola and Chong and Pereira don't look the grade. Keep The Scottish Player, James, Fred and Garner, loan out Gomes and Chong and get three world class midfielders in - a right-sided one, a creative 10 and a holding player.

Forwards:
Rashford, Martial, Greenwood. We're an experienced goalscorer light imo; not bothered who, so long as they want to be here. Rashford is wide left, but Greenwood and Martial for me aren't good enough yet to be lone strikers. We either change the staff or the system.

The game has moved on from 4-4-2 and Fergie's magnificent teams. We were spoiled with trophies almost non-stop for nearly a quarter of a century. We have to accept that we are now playing catch up with Liverpool and City. Forget what has been spent before Ole. Just like Robbo said about the title in the late 80s/early 90s - it's not the current squad's fault that the title hadn't been won since 67, it's their problem now. The nearly £1billion spent since Fergie left isn't Ole's fault. He's spent far better than most if you look at it with any sense of logic. We were moaning in May about needing a new centre-back, not wanting Valencia or Young and right-back and needing more pace down the flanks. He's addressed all three. Let's see the squad we've got at the end of the summer - we're going to find it tough to sign the players we want in January in all honesty.

25 different outfield players used in the league already this season. Injuries, giving players a chance to prove themselves and finding out who we want to keep has to be part of that. We aren't going to get instant success,[SIZE="4"] but we can build steadily toward it rather than moan about wanting Allegri in. To do what? Managing Juventus has been like managing Celtic over the last decade - it's been harder to £#%&! the title up than win it.

Rubbish! How do you explain Allegri getting his side to two champions league finals then?

Originally Posted by Whiteside onside

Rubbish! How do you explain Allegri getting his side to two champions league finals then?

Well I certainly don’t think it harmed him any inheriting an excellent set of players. While I don’t think you can discredit any manager who actually wins things, he took over a team that had just won 3 titles on the bounce.

Originally Posted by utd99

Well I certainly don’t think it harmed him any inheriting an excellent set of players. While I don’t think you can discredit any manager who actually wins things, he took over a team that had just won 3 titles on the bounce.

Fair comment but still think we should be looking at him.

Originally Posted by Whiteside onside

Fair comment but still think we should be looking at him.

Of course we should - it would be unprofessional to do anything else. I think the point that’s getting missed among the debate about Solskjaer is that even people who think he should get the time he needs to build his own team are not suggesting they know for a fact he’ll be successful; he might not be. However, Allegri, Pochettino, or whoever, would still be inheriting an extremely weak squad and would struggle to achieve anything of note with what we currently have. They would still need to bring in players - so why not give the current man the same opportunity and then judge him?

The disconnect to me is coming in the theory vs practice aspect. Even if we had no manager at all most United supporters would be thinking in terms of a 3+ year restructure period, but when we have a man in place we don’t want to give him 3+ years.

Originally Posted by utd99

Of course we should - it would be unprofessional to do anything else. I think the point that’s getting missed among the debate about Solskjaer is that even people who think he should get the time he needs to build his own team are not suggesting they know for a fact he’ll be successful; he might not be. However, Allegri, Pochettino, or whoever, would still be inheriting an extremely weak squad and would struggle to achieve anything of note with what we currently have. They would still need to bring in players - so why not give the current man the same opportunity and then judge him?

The disconnect to me is coming in the theory vs practice aspect. Even if we had no manager at all most United supporters would be thinking in terms of a 3+ year restructure period, but when we have a man in place we don’t want to give him 3+ years.

I think the point is we would be giving a league 1 standard manager 3+ years.

At least give someone who knows what they are doing the time to rebuild and not take what would be a huge gamble on a nobody (in manager terms) that time to make things right.