Mourinho issues June deadline.

Originally Posted by Billy Redface

You're deciding that's how it is. I disagree. I don't think LVG has to become ingrained in the fabric of the club. I think it's simpler than that and, frankly, I don't think he's THAT influential. Several clubs have hired him and been successful soon afterwards. I think the impact of the groundwork he's laid is more open to interpretation than his supporters like to admit.

I do get what you mean, Siders. You sign LVG, you commit to a longer term vision rather than a short-term fix. He attempts to change things from top to bottom. I get that. But my point is that if that simply isn't working (and it isn't. Maybe there's more good things happening behind the scenes. Nobody really knows) then we shouldn't be afraid to rip it out and start again. Certainly not over some pseudo-integro idea that it isn't the United way or for fear of looking like Chelsea or Real Madrid.

We might be at the point where we're not only sacking lvg, but also admitting that his way isn't the right direction to go in at all.

It's not ideal. It's a real pisser to commit to an idea and then have to admit it isn't working and start again. Nobody wanted it, but here we are.

And I do think there is a link between immediate success and implementing these longer term visions. We have to stay relevant and competitive in order to attract the standard of players good enough to buy into whatever we have.

A big part of the LVG defence is that he doesn't have the players. Well, if we continue to slide down the league and miss out on the CL then we never will. For me, there has to be a balance between the vision and the present. Right now, our present is shit and that needs addressing with great urgency.



Definitely agree on that

You say it isn't working but the reality is that these types of changes don't happen overnight. Especially when the club isn't particularly prepared or receptive to such change. If they had anything about them the people running United would have known LvG's methods would meet with opposition, internally and externally. That's why it was such a huge call to hire him. You had people on here complaining that he hadn't turned us into Michel's Holland within four months ffs

The idea that you agree with the vision but then tear it up because it's not happening quickly enough under one guy is worrying to me. And the other reality that the mess at the club has many causes is I think part of the reason there's much sympathy for him at board level.

United signed up for complete and utter revolution of just about everything, then pretty much gave up after 18 months because it wasn't happening quickly enough. There's no way that's a healthy sign. At least LvG has implemented vast change behind the scenes, which should be of some help moving forward.

Originally Posted by S/Side.Red

You say it isn't working but the reality is that these types of changes don't happen overnight. Especially when the club isn't particularly prepared or receptive to such change. If they had anything about them the people running United would have known LvG's methods would meet with opposition, internally and externally. That's why it was such a huge call to hire him. You had people on here complaining that he hadn't turned us into Michel's Holland within four months ffs

The idea that you agree with the vision but then tear it up because it's not happening quickly enough under one guy is worrying to me. And the other reality that the mess at the club has many causes is I think part of the reason there's much sympathy for him at board level.

United signed up for complete and utter revolution of just about everything, then pretty much gave up after 18 months because it wasn't happening quickly enough. There's no way that's a healthy sign. At least LvG has implemented vast change behind the scenes, which should be of some help moving forward.

Fundamentally, I agree, but within that greater commitment from the club would also be an understanding that a certain standard must be maintained while it's happening.

And he simply hasn't done that. That's the part that isn't working. He's 2 years into a 3 year contract where his aim was to win the league at the end of it. He's not there. He'd admit that. That's why it isn't working.

As a team, we don't do anything well. We really don't. The main things that have apparently improved is our defence and our ability to keep the ball, but the longer the season goes the more we see that both of those attributes fold under real pressure.

The main thing he's done is bring the kids in. And any manager half decent will keep them. There's little else about this side I wouldn't happily abandon.

As I said earlier, the good work might be happening behind the scenes. It might benefit us in the future. We don't really know. As fans, we can only really go with what we see.



No, it's not a healthy sign. But here we are. Needs must. We're not sacking for the sake of it. We've sacked moyes and we'll soon sack lvg because the standard just isn't high enough. Absolutely every club in world football operates this way.

You're more or less giving him license to never be sacked if we say we're fully committed to the idea regardless of how the present is.

How bad should it be allowed to get for the greater good? How low are we allowed to go after 18 months.

Bottom half? Relegation? ....

The present is important too. And our present is going to £#%&! up our future at this rate

Originally Posted by Billy Redface

Fundamentally, I agree, but within that greater commitment from the club would also be an understanding that a certain standard must be maintained while it's happening.

And he simply hasn't done that. That's the part that isn't working. As I said earlier, the good work might be happening behind the scenes. It might benefit us in the future. We don't really know.

You're more or less giving him license to never be sacked if we say we're fully committed to the idea.

How bad should it be allowed to get for the greater good? How low are we allowed to go after 18 months.

Bottom half? Relegation? ....

The present is important too. And our present is going to £#%&! up our future at this rate

Well I don't think our present is totally shit. I'm loving some of the young players we have. I think we're watching the best young player in the game weekly. But we don't have enough top players and we don't score enough goals, so you have to decide whether LvG is the fundamental cause of that, as everyone likes to believe. Personally I don't think he is. I think he's trying to fight against the wind in making massive changes at the club, with a flawed squad and an unreceptive public. And no strikers, which is the quite obvious main cause of our problems.

What's frustrating is his vision will be realised, probably within the next five years. Someone will develop on some of the things he's done and people will look back and be more appreciative. It's up to the club how quickly that happens based on the next appointment.

Originally Posted by S/Side.Red

You say it isn't working but the reality is that these types of changes don't happen overnight. Especially when the club isn't particularly prepared or receptive to such change. If they had anything about them the people running United would have known LvG's methods would meet with opposition, internally and externally. That's why it was such a huge call to hire him. You had people on here complaining that he hadn't turned us into Michel's Holland within four months ffs

The idea that you agree with the vision but then tear it up because it's not happening quickly enough under one guy is worrying to me. And the other reality that the mess at the club has many causes is I think part of the reason there's much sympathy for him at board level.

United signed up for complete and utter revolution of just about everything, then pretty much gave up after 18 months because it wasn't happening quickly enough. There's no way that's a healthy sign. At least LvG has implemented vast change behind the scenes, which should be of some help moving forward.

The club didn't sign LvG because they wanted to introduce total football to Old Trafford
They signed him because he was a big name experienced manager that was out of contract and therefore easy to get
I'm sure Woody was impressed by LvG's plans but there's no way the club were going to continue with this way of playing after LvG left

The plan was for Giggs to take over afterwards and you just know he would have gone back to Fergie ball in a heartbeat

The club has no longer term vision. How could it when you have the Glazers and a glorified accountant making the decisions

Until we get a quality experienced director of football in to make all medium to long term football decisions we will continue to lurch from one crisis to the next

Simple fact is LvG is lucky he got two years at this club as at any other big club in Europe he would have been out on his ear months ago

Originally Posted by S/Side.Red

Well I don't think our present is totally shit. I'm loving some of the young players we have. I think we're watching the best young player in the game weekly. But we don't have enough top players and we don't score enough goals, so you have to decide whether LvG is the fundamental cause of that, as everyone likes to believe. Personally I don't think he is. I think he's trying to fight against the wind in making massive changes at the club, with a flawed squad and an unreceptive public. And no strikers, which is the quite obvious main cause of our problems.

What's frustrating is his vision will be realised, probably within the next five years. Someone will develop on some of the things he's done and people will look back and be more appreciative. It's up to the club how quickly that happens based on the next appointment.

It's not totally shit, but it's not good enough.

Yes, the kids are good and a top manager will keep them a play them. That's a big tick in lvg's pros column.

The squad isn't good enough and it won't get any better if we can't offer CL football and the prospect of challenging for the league to new players. That's how the present ties in with the future.

Unfortunately, your last paragraph is hopefully speculation. It might be realised, it might not. Imo, there hasn't been enough in his tenure to avoid taking that risk.

Originally Posted by ZiggyStardust

The club didn't sign LvG because they wanted to introduce total football to Old Trafford
They signed him because he was a big name experienced manager that was out of contract and therefore easy to get
I'm sure Woody was impressed by LvG's plans but there's no way the club were going to continue with this way of playing after LvG left

The plan was for Giggs to take over afterwards and you just know he would have gone back to Fergie ball in a heartbeat

The club has no longer term vision. How could it when you have the Glazers and a glorified accountant making the decisions

Until we get a quality experienced director of football in to make all medium to long term football decisions we will continue to lurch from one crisis to the next

Simple fact is LvG is lucky he got two years at this club as at any other big club in Europe he would have been out on his ear months ago

The simple fact is also that if he took over any other similar sized club he'd have better players. A notion backed up by him managing those similar sized clubs and winning league titles.

United need possibly two more strikers. People over complicate things with this talk of play style. Ferguson became far more pragmatic as he got older and the football wasn't as fluid as a result. But what he always did was have three or four guys who could get you goals.

He learned that in '92 when United blew the title and started the next season unable to score goals. 6 in 12 games at one stage iirc. He signed Cantona and it all changed. From then on he always stocked up on quality at the top end.

It's what United are lacking, far more than they're lacking Mourinho or anyone else. We have spent all season with no strikers on the bench. It's the absolute main problem imo. And it'll be addressed this summer, whoever is in charge.

Originally Posted by S/Side.Red

The simple fact is also that if he took over any other similar sized club he'd have better players. A notion backed up by him managing those similar sized clubs and winning league titles.

United need possibly two more strikers. People over complicate things with this talk of play style. Ferguson became far more pragmatic as he got older and the football wasn't as fluid as a result. But what he always did was have three or four guys who could get you goals.

He learned that in '92 when United blew the title and started the next season unable to score goals. 6 in 12 games at one stage iirc. He signed Cantona and it all changed. From then on he always stocked up on quality at the top end.

It's what United are lacking, far more than they're lacking Mourinho or anytime else. We have spent all season with no strikers on the bench. It's the absolutely main problem. And it'll be addressed this summer, whoever is in charge.

He's had the time and money to address that issue and instead we are in a worse striker situation than when he took over

In short he's had his chance and he's completely £#%&!ed it up

Originally Posted by S/Side.Red

The simple fact is also that if he took over any other similar sized club he'd have better players. A notion backed up by him managing those similar sized clubs and winning league titles.

United need possibly two more strikers. People over complicate things with this talk of play style. Ferguson became far more pragmatic as he got older and the football wasn't as fluid as a result. But what he always did was have three or four guys who could get you goals.

He learned that in '92 when United blew the title and started the next season unable to score goals. 6 in 12 games at one stage iirc. He signed Cantona and it all changed. From then on he always stocked up on quality at the top end.

It's what United are lacking, far more than they're lacking Mourinho or anytime else. We have spent all season with no strikers on the bench. It's the absolutely main problem. And it'll be addressed this summer, whoever is in charge.

You say in one breath that we should commit to LvG and a total overhaul of how we play for years to come. ......and then say the play style is overrated and we just need a good striker. You're an odd one , Siders

I don't think it's that simple either. We need a hell of a lot more than that and I don't trust LvG to do it.

Originally Posted by ZiggyStardust

He's had the time and money to address that issue and instead we are in a worse striker situation than when he took over

In short he's had his chance and he's completely £#%&!ed it up

By most people's reckoning he had two summer windows to sign at least one full back, a couple of CBs, at least three midfielders, a couple of wingers and probably two or three strikers. And no scouting data. More than enough time? Again, I think sympathy from within the club is partly based on them knowing how much they've £#%&!ed up too.

Originally Posted by Billy Redface

You say in one breath that we should commit to LvG and a total overhaul of how we play for years to come. ......and then say the play style is overrated and we just need a good striker. You're an odd one , Siders

I don't think it's that simple either. We need a hell of a lot more than that and I don't trust LvG to do it.

I don't say we should commit to LvG. Well, I think we should, but we don't have to. The idea, yes. But I'm not saying that the play style isn't important. It's just that when you have no strikers and don't score goals, it's probably the not having strikers that's the main reason.

Originally Posted by S/Side.Red

Again, I think sympathy from within the club is partly based on them knowing how much they've £#%&!ed up too.

Are you just making this stuff up about sympathy in the club for LvG or do you actually have some inside contacts?

Originally Posted by S/Side.Red

By most people's reckoning he had two summer windows to sign at least one full back, a couple of CBs, at least three midfielders, a couple of wingers and probably two or three strikers. And no scouting data. More than enough time? Again, I think sympathy from within the club is partly based on them knowing how much they've £#%&!ed up too.



I don't say we should commit to LvG. Well, I think we should, but we don't have to. The idea, yes. But I'm not saying that the play style isn't important. It's just that when you have no strikers and don't score goals, it's probably the not having strikers that's the main reason.

Just out of curiosity, how badly would we need to have done this season for you to want him gone?

Originally Posted by Billy Redface

Just out of curiosity, how badly would we need to have done this season for you to want him gone?

Given the mitigation and the fact that there are so many obvious things that need fixing regardless of who the manager is, for me to really want to bin someone of Van Gaal's class I'd have to believe that he's fighting a losing battle with the players.

As it happens, the youngsters are taking to him and this highly limited group has given it a good go since January. They're not a great group, but they've improved in recent months. But we need more top class players and better depth in attack to get where we need to be. I'm fairly convinced we will be much better next season regardless.

We could sign the best striker in the world and he'd look ordinary because we barely conjure up two chances per game

Originally Posted by S/Side.Red

Given the mitigation and the fact that there are so many obvious things that need fixing regardless of who the manager is, for me to really want to bin someone of Van Gaal's class I'd have to believe that he's fighting a losing battle with the players.

As it happens, the youngsters are taking to him and this highly limited group has given it a good go since January. They're not a great group, but they've improved in recent months. But we need more top class players and better depth in attack to get where we need to be. I'm fairly convinced we will be much better next season regardless.

Politician's answer!

I want league positions, domestic cup rounds. ....real data!

Originally Posted by morgan

We could sign the best striker in the world and he'd look ordinary because we barely conjure up two chances per game

We had a crocked RvP who could barely move last season and he still bagged 10 league goals.

Better quality supply line and a top boy with proper movement up front and we'll be so much better off.

Originally Posted by S/Side.Red

Plenty of the players, especially young ones, will have benefited from being coached by him.

Anyway, I want him sacked ASAP so I stop talking about this nearly every day.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1d4C1ZQKmw4

Originally Posted by Billy Redface

Politician's answer!

I want league positions, domestic cup rounds. ....real data!

All a bit short term for me, that

The current side we are playing with is dogshit individually. I think he's got them doing alright.

Originally Posted by Jethro

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1d4C1ZQKmw4

Purely bants, chief

Originally Posted by S/Side.Red

All a bit short term for me, that

The current side we are playing with is dogshit individually. I think he's got them doing alright.



Purely bants, chief

Short term? So the current season doesn't matter? So you'd take a relegation battle? Would you take chelse's league campaign and position?

Originally Posted by Billy Redface

Short term? So the current season doesn't matter? So you'd take a relegation battle? Would you take chelse's league campaign and position?

Well no because all that would suggest he lost the battle with the players.

Our merry band of average being led by a half dead Carrick and a plummeting Rooney aren't doing that badly.

Originally Posted by S/Side.Red

Well no because all that would suggest he lost the battle with the players.

Our merry band of average being led by a half dead Carrick and a plummeting Rooney aren't doing that badly.

Exactly. I think this point is lost on most, although the majority of that most think Mata is World Class and being ruined by the manager