England v USA : World Cup Match Thread 7pm 25/11/22

Originally Posted by Stickman

Genuinely can’t ever recall England winning a tournament match under Southgate you didn’t expect them to win.

All things relatively equal between squads and he invariably loses. That’s usually an issue in coaching.

Even Switzerland at f***ing Wembley in a semi final was nip tuck.

he has no idea how to change a game and is far too conservative

Originally Posted by Stickman

Genuinely can’t ever recall England winning a tournament match under Southgate you didn’t expect them to win.

All things relatively equal between squads and he invariably loses. That’s usually an issue in coaching.

Even Switzerland at £#%&!ing Wembley in a semi final was nip tuck.

Denmark?

Originally Posted by dunk

Denmark?

exactly

A middle of the road outfit that usually has up to 2 players at top clubs.

Originally Posted by Stickman

exactly .

Reported

I don’t agree with this idea that it’s a particularly talented English group and Southgate it wasting it. His constant selection of Mount over Foden is bizarre, but I think it’s a poor squad in comparison to previous generations.

There’s some top talent: Bellingham, Foden, Kane. But every generation has one or two.

Compare it to the supposed ‘golden generation’ and it’s laughable in comparison. None of the three keepers are close to back up keepers like Martyn and Flowers, never mind Seaman. Full backs are meh. Hardly Cole and Neville. Maguire and Stones are bang average when we used to choose from Terry, Rio, Campbell and Carragher.

I’m not convinced Declan Rice is anything more than functional and seems to be part of a lot of midfields that get comfortably overrun. Not a single midfielder is anywhere near the level of Scholes, Lampard, Gerrard or Beckham. Never mind all four of them together.

Forwards: Kane is a top class striker, but there’s no raw talent like a young Owen or Rooney.

That was a true waste of a team.

The thing this England side has in their favour seems to be a better spirit and a less club divided dressing room. They’re actually a likeable bunch. There seems to be far less pressure and scapegoating from fans and media too. We used to love our whipping boys and pinning blame, but the reaction to Saka missing his penalty in the Euros was very different to what you got in the 90s and 00s.

Another key factor is the quality of opposition. It’s not good. There’s no great international sides right now from what I can see. There’s nothing of the quality of that Spain generation. Nothing as resolute as mid-90s Germany. Where are the levels of Davids, Kluivert and Bergkamp in the Dutch side? England got knocked out in 2002 by a team containing Ronaldo, Ronaldinho and Rivaldo - good Lord! Now it’s £#%&!ing Richarlison.

They’ll top the group and they’ll be tough to beat in the knockouts. They’ve become a solid tournament team, in a weak generation of international teams.

Originally Posted by Dr Stranger

I don’t agree with this idea that it’s a particularly talented English group and Southgate it wasting it. His constant selection of Mount over Foden is bizarre, but I think it’s a poor squad in comparison to previous generations.

There’s some top talent: Bellingham, Foden, Kane. But every generation has one or two.

Compare it to the supposed ‘golden generation’ and it’s laughable in comparison. None of the three keepers are close to back up keepers like Martyn and Flowers, never mind Seaman. Full backs are meh. Hardly Cole and Neville. Maguire and Stones are bang average when we used to choose from Terry, Rio, Campbell and Carragher.

I’m not convinced Declan Rice is anything more than functional and seems to be part of a lot of midfields that get comfortably overrun. Not a single midfielder is anywhere near the level of Scholes, Lampard, Gerrard or Beckham. Never mind all four of them together.

Forwards: Kane is a top class striker, but there’s no raw talent like a young Owen or Rooney.

That was a true waste of a team.

The thing this England side has in their favour seems to be a better spirit and a less club divided dressing room. They’re actually a likeable bunch. There seems to be far less pressure and scapegoating from fans and media too. We used to love our whipping boys and pinning blame, but the reaction to Saka missing his penalty in the Euros was very different to what you got in the 90s and 00s.

Another key factor is the quality of opposition. It’s not good. There’s no great international sides right now from what I can see. There’s nothing of the quality of that Spain generation. Nothing as resolute as mid-90s Germany. Where are the levels of Davids, Kluivert and Bergkamp in the Dutch side? England got knocked out in 2002 by a team containing Ronaldo, Ronaldinho and Rivaldo - good Lord! Now it’s f***ing Richarlison.

They’ll top the group and they’ll be tough to beat in the knockouts. They’ve become a solid tournament team, in a weak generation of international teams.

A pointless comparison to previous England squads. You need to compare it to the teams they are actually competing against. England have one of the strongest squads in the tournament.

Originally Posted by Dr Stranger

I don’t agree with this idea that it’s a particularly talented English group and Southgate it wasting it. His constant selection of Mount over Foden is bizarre, but I think it’s a poor squad in comparison to previous generations.

There’s some top talent: Bellingham, Foden, Kane. But every generation has one or two.

Compare it to the supposed ‘golden generation’ and it’s laughable in comparison. None of the three keepers are close to back up keepers like Martyn and Flowers, never mind Seaman. Full backs are meh. Hardly Cole and Neville. Maguire and Stones are bang average when we used to choose from Terry, Rio, Campbell and Carragher.

I’m not convinced Declan Rice is anything more than functional and seems to be part of a lot of midfields that get comfortably overrun. Not a single midfielder is anywhere near the level of Scholes, Lampard, Gerrard or Beckham. Never mind all four of them together.

Forwards: Kane is a top class striker, but there’s no raw talent like a young Owen or Rooney.

That was a true waste of a team.

The thing this England side has in their favour seems to be a better spirit and a less club divided dressing room. They’re actually a likeable bunch. There seems to be far less pressure and scapegoating from fans and media too. We used to love our whipping boys and pinning blame, but the reaction to Saka missing his penalty in the Euros was very different to what you got in the 90s and 00s.

Another key factor is the quality of opposition. It’s not good. There’s no great international sides right now from what I can see. There’s nothing of the quality of that Spain generation. Nothing as resolute as mid-90s Germany. Where are the levels of Davids, Kluivert and Bergkamp in the Dutch side? England got knocked out in 2002 by a team containing Ronaldo, Ronaldinho and Rivaldo - good Lord! Now it’s £#%&!ing Richarlison.

They’ll top the group and they’ll be tough to beat in the knockouts. They’ve become a solid tournament team, in a weak generation of international teams.

Nrat

Originally Posted by Coracao

A pointless comparison to previous England squads. You need to compare it to the teams they are actually competing against. England have one of the strongest squads in the tournament.

It’s pointless? We were talking about how talented it is or isn’t. There’s a suggestion that there’s talent being wasted. I’m not sure there is, in relation to what the other teams we’ve seen before or the current teams they’re competing against.

Yes. It’s strong in relation to others squads . Hence me saying they’ll finish top and be hard to beat

Yes, pointless.

There’s clearly talent being wasted. You’re pointing out some great players they had in the past which is fair enough, but those squads also contained Peter Crouch. Stewart Downing. Jermaine Jenas. Darius Vassell. Emile Heskey. Stephen Warnock. Paul Robinson.

There’s quality players all over this squad, particularly in an attacking sense, so to constantly produce such dour tedious football means something is clearly being wasted imo.

Originally Posted by Dr Stranger

It’s pointless? We were talking about how talented it is or isn’t. There’s a suggestion that there’s talent being wasted. I’m not sure there is, in relation to what the other teams we’ve seen before or the current teams they’re competing against.

Yes. It’s strong in relation to others squads . Hence me saying they’ll finish top and be hard to beat

The problem is they are not hard for a decent side to beat, hence the earlier correct comment that under Southgate they have never won a competitive tournament game they were expected to lose. Do not have the full odds data to hand, but believe their win over Spain in a glorified friendly fixture was the only competitive game they won when not favourites. Progressing on the finest of margins against sides like Colombia and Switzerland. Galling statistic. There is a reason Ten Hag bombed out Maguire (can't play the high line): there is a reason Foden is Guardiola's go to of all his wide players in a big game. Southgate gets fundamental structural decisions wrong.

The meat of the side is from the domestic/European City / Liverpool teams of past few years, with Shaw/Bellingham/Saka/Kane/Rice sprinkled on top. There is a lot of attacking quality in that side at forward/winger/full back, with enough functionality in midfield and at centre half to look far, far better than they have. Man for man on a positional basis, only the French really have better players.

Of course there's talent being wasted. Hate to admit it but that scrote Foden, not using him yesterday was criminal.

Got PTSD watching a back four including Maguire and Shaw aimlessly passing slowly between them.

Originally Posted by Dr Stranger

I don’t agree with this idea that it’s a particularly talented English group and Southgate it wasting it. His constant selection of Mount over Foden is bizarre, but I think it’s a poor squad in comparison to previous generations.

There’s some top talent: Bellingham, Foden, Kane. But every generation has one or two.

Compare it to the supposed ‘golden generation’ and it’s laughable in comparison. None of the three keepers are close to back up keepers like Martyn and Flowers, never mind Seaman. Full backs are meh. Hardly Cole and Neville. Maguire and Stones are bang average when we used to choose from Terry, Rio, Campbell and Carragher.

I’m not convinced Declan Rice is anything more than functional and seems to be part of a lot of midfields that get comfortably overrun. Not a single midfielder is anywhere near the level of Scholes, Lampard, Gerrard or Beckham. Never mind all four of them together.

Forwards: Kane is a top class striker, but there’s no raw talent like a young Owen or Rooney.

That was a true waste of a team.

The thing this England side has in their favour seems to be a better spirit and a less club divided dressing room. They’re actually a likeable bunch. There seems to be far less pressure and scapegoating from fans and media too. We used to love our whipping boys and pinning blame, but the reaction to Saka missing his penalty in the Euros was very different to what you got in the 90s and 00s.

Another key factor is the quality of opposition. It’s not good. There’s no great international sides right now from what I can see. There’s nothing of the quality of that Spain generation. Nothing as resolute as mid-90s Germany. Where are the levels of Davids, Kluivert and Bergkamp in the Dutch side? England got knocked out in 2002 by a team containing Ronaldo, Ronaldinho and Rivaldo - good Lord! Now it’s f***ing Richarlison.

They’ll top the group and they’ll be tough to beat in the knockouts. They’ve become a solid tournament team, in a weak generation of international teams.

Some fair points. I think some of the biggest issues back then were the midfield - the likes of Eriksson trying to shoehorn Scholes, Gerrard, and Lampard into the same team and the preference for 4-4-2.

Also as you say there was a lot of fan and media pressure on players (after they'd been built up to be something amazing), and it was clear a lot of players didn't enjoy playing for England.

Then there was the inability to keep the ball against good teams - and despite the improvement in Premier League coaching in the past 20 years, that continues through to today.

Originally Posted by Ethers

There’s clearly talent being wasted. You’re pointing out some great players they had in the past which is fair enough, but those squads also contained Peter Crouch. Stewart Downing. Jermaine Jenas. Darius Vassell. Emile Heskey. Stephen Warnock. Paul Robinson.

There’s quality players all over this squad, particularly in an attacking sense, so to constantly produce such dour tedious football means something is clearly being wasted imo.

Exactly, it's risk-averse crap most of the time. Everyone choosing the safe pass because the manager has clearly instructed them not to take risks.

I've watched Saka loads this season and he shines in an Arsenal team which play high energy, aggressive pressing football. Stick him up front in a side that labours the ball about the place and he looks rubbish.

Originally Posted by Ethers

There’s clearly talent being wasted. You’re pointing out some great players they had in the past which is fair enough, but those squads also contained Peter Crouch. Stewart Downing. Jermaine Jenas. Darius Vassell. Emile Heskey. Stephen Warnock. Paul Robinson.

There’s quality players all over this squad, particularly in an attacking sense, so to constantly produce such dour tedious football means something is clearly being wasted imo.

Every squad through the years will have some quality and some crap, but the reason they called that team the golden generation and a missed chance was because that 1-11 was especially strong, much stronger than this one.

Seaman

Neville
Rio
Terry
Cole

Lampard
Gerrard
Scholes
Beckham

Owen
Rooney

Not a single member of the current squad gets near that imo. Maybe Kane. I think there’s SOME attacking quality, but not a lot. It’s fairly functional. Saka, Sterling, Rashford have their flaws. The flair players aren’t even that flairy. Grealish is dull. Maddison untested at the highest level.

Foden is the one who is bafflingly missing out. Other than that, I don’t think they’re missing much of a trick. They’re about as good as I’d expect them to be.

Southgate is unquestionably a negative drip though. His in-game management is terrible

Southgate is an awful gaffer. Just surprised people are only just realising

Mount is bang average. Have always thought that

Originally Posted by Part 36 Offer

Southgate is an awful gaffer. Just surprised people are only just realising

Mount is bang average. Have always thought that

Those that know have known for years & years & years. His Middlesborough tenure was all that needed to be seen. The casuals/simpletons who drove waist coat sales up 35% at the last WC .. maybe not.

Originally Posted by Dr Stranger

Every squad through the years will have some quality and some crap, but the reason they called that team the golden generation and a missed chance was because that 1-11 was especially strong, much stronger than this one.

Seaman

Neville
Rio
Terry
Cole

Lampard
Gerrard
Scholes
Beckham

Owen
Rooney

Not a single member of the current squad gets near that imo. Maybe Kane. I think there’s SOME attacking quality, but not a lot. It’s fairly functional. Saka, Sterling, Rashford have their flaws. The flair players aren’t even that flairy. Grealish is dull. Maddison untested at the highest level.

Foden is the one who is bafflingly missing out. Other than that, I don’t think they’re missing much of a trick. They’re about as good as I’d expect them to be.

Southgate is unquestionably a negative drip though. His in-game management is terrible

That team never played together at an international tournament, so that kind of negates your point somewhat tbh.

Originally Posted by Ethers

That team never played together at an international tournament, so that kind of negates your point somewhat tbh.

Southgate has a good squad. I don’t think it’s second best in the tournament - the central defence and keepers in particular are average, they have one left back, the midfield has little depth and there’s no reliable goal scorer outside of Kane. But it’s good enough to be beating the USA ffs. Clown manager who says nice things that the media likes.