Martial

Originally Posted by Tiberian

I have come round to thinking that your were right all along about Martial. Allowed myself to be infatuated with his talent, but his attitude seems unsalvageable, you can only blame others for so long, at some point personal responsibility has to come into it.

Night and day watching listless Martial and then the intensity and focus of who should be his peers in Mane, Sterling, Son and co. Waste of talent unless his attitude diametrically alters.

Which, let’s face it, isn’t going to happen.

It was obvious to me, even from his first season when he was quite productive, that something was off. Just his lack of desire to get into dangerous areas when the play was developing elsewhere was noticeable by it’s absence. When you’re down in the dumps like we were at that time, a little hope can blind you to the big picture.

Originally Posted by My Name is Keith

I like how you jump from 'he says we have a talented bunch of players' to 'that's obviously what he said at his interview' and 'probably said it doesn't need wholesale changes'.

ie you go from something he did say to something you have no idea whatsoever whether he said or not.

Personally, I'm not sure wholesale changes are necessary or realistic:

I think it's realistic and necessary to ditch Lukaku, Young and Lingard and get a new striker, a new right back, and a new right sided midfielder.

I would ask the fitness staff to get Luke Shaw to look more like a footballer than a darts player or get jobs elsewhere. I would try and keep Herrera but look for his and Matic's replacement over the course of next season.

I would probably keep Martial and try him, Rashers and the new striker upfront.

I would simply release Phil Jones back to the wild with nothing more than a handkerchief knotted on the end of a pole.

3 key players in and 4 or 5 out.

We can’t be held hostage to talent mate. We know enough about Martial now to make an educated guess that he’s unlikely to change, and if that’s correct then every day we spend trying is a day less we’ll have with someone who wants to be here and fight for his shirt.

Originally Posted by utd99

You don’t know that. I haven’t seen Klopp buy 11 players, stick them all on the bench while continuing with Brendon Rodgers players and whining that he can’t go out and buy another 11 willy nilly. Our managers were supported; however, in the real world, anyone who employs and supports you is entitled to ask at some point when we can expect some improvement.

Tbf he bought the likes of Karius, Klaven, Keïta, but would often drop them for Mignolet, Lovren and Milner...

He’s been able to replace two of them with better players too, spending record fees in the process.

Originally Posted by AK14

Tbf he bought the likes of Karius, Klaven, Keïta, but would often drop them for Mignolet, Lovren and Milner...

He’s been able to replace two of them with better players too, spending record fees in the process.

It’s reasonable for two or three buys not to work out, but all of them? The simple fact is that we were worse after two and a half years, and almost a whole side bought than we were at the beginning; at what point is it reasonable for any employer to ask where their investment has gone?

Mourinho is a master of spin; of course he’s going to make it all about lack of support, because if he can’t then people might start asking questions about the actual job he did here.

Wholesale changes are required but no club in history has ever got that right in one transfer window, let alone one with our proven record in unearthing expensive duds.

We want to be Liverpool now overnight, well that Liverpool side didn't emerge overnight. A week ago we all wanted to be Ajax and that didn't happen overnight either. Ole might not be Rinus Michels but he's not a £#%&!ing idiot either.

Originally Posted by utd99

We can’t be held hostage to talent mate. We know enough about Martial now to make an educated guess that he’s unlikely to change, and if that’s correct then every day we spend trying is a day less we’ll have with someone who wants to be here and fight for his shirt.

I don't disagree. The evidence points to your conclusion. I think if I was more confident as to the quality of his replacement (even if it was unproven at this stage) then I'd be happier.

The problem we have is that we all know we've got to make changes but have no confidence that the club has the ability to get those changes right. It's easy to £#%&! people like Jones/Sanchez/Lingard off because they're demonstrably shit and pretty much anyone replacing them would be an improvement. It's more difficult when you know that the player actually can play a bit....

My thumb is pointing down on Martial but it's hesitant.

Originally Posted by AK14

Tbf he bought the likes of Karius, Klaven, Keïta, but would often drop them for Mignolet, Lovren and Milner...

He’s been able to replace two of them with better players too, spending record fees in the process.

Goalkeeper is an incredibly difficult position to fill mate, we know this first hand. Guardiola has had to have a few goes as well. Keita is actually coming on and he’s dispensed with Mingolet. The fees you are talking about were largely offset by the Coutinho deal. The point is they have had greater success with their buys by far and spent significantly less out of pocket. We may hate it, but it’s the truth.

Originally Posted by My Name is Keith

I don't disagree. The evidence points to your conclusion. I think if I was more confident as to the quality of his replacement (even if it was unproven at this stage) then I'd be happier.

The problem we have is that we all know we've got to make changes but have no confidence that the club has the ability to get those changes right. It's easy to £#%&! people like Jones/Sanchez/Lingard off because they're demonstrably shit and pretty much anyone replacing them would be an improvement. It's more difficult when you know that the player actually can play a bit....

My thumb is pointing down on Martial but it's hesitant.

Because that’s where we’re at; but at some point you have to grab the nettle. As much as I don’t like Lingard as a player, I’d say that if we had to pick our poison on getting rid of either disruptive ‘talent’ or players that try, but aren’t good enough I’d say the former.

We have to remember we’re going to be looking to draft in academy kids and new blood from outside. You want them walking into Pogba dabbing after a loss or Martial refusing to move during a pre game?

Originally Posted by utd99

It’s reasonable for two or three buys not to work out, but all of them? The simple fact is that we were worse after two and a half years, and almost a whole side bought than we were at the beginning; at what point is it reasonable for any employer to ask where their investment has gone?

Mourinho is a master of spin; of course he’s going to make it all about lack of support, because if he can’t then people might start asking questions about the actual job he did here.

https://www.planetfootball.com/quick...rpool-manager/

He’s had quite a few poor buys tbf.

They kept backing him though and arguably his best buys have come in the last few transfer windows. Klopp wouldn’t have been given that sort of trust here.

I have doubts whether all the transfers were Mourinho’s number one targets, just as I had doubts Van Gaal wanted the likes of Darmian.

Originally Posted by AK14

https://www.planetfootball.com/quick...rpool-manager/

He’s had quite a few poor buys tbf.

They kept backing him though and arguably his best buys have come in the last few transfer windows. Klopp wouldn’t have been given that sort of trust here.

I have doubts whether all the transfers were Mourinho’s number one targets, just as I had doubts Van Gaal wanted the likes of Darmian.

Mate; did you actually look at that list? If we’d had anywhere near that level of success with our buys we wouldn’t even be talking about this right now. The rest is just pure conjecture. ‘Wasn’t his first choice’, ‘wouldn’t have been supported’, we cannot know any of this, so what’s the purpose other than using utter speculation to make a point?

I don’t care whether you’re a van Gaal sympathizer or Mourinho supporter, it makes no difference. Both those men lost the confidence of the players, the supporters and the board with the job they did. Klopp has never lost the scousers confidence since he’s been there, and that’s reflected in the type of performance we saw last night and a 97 point season. What else is there to talk about?

Originally Posted by AK14

I have doubts whether all the transfers were Mourinho’s number one targets, just as I had doubts Van Gaal wanted the likes of Darmian.

No manager in the history of the game got all their first choice picks all the time. Many players are simply not gettable for any price. Sometimes good management means doing good things with what you can get.

Originally Posted by utd99

Mate; did you actually look at that list? If we’d had anywhere near that level of success with our buys we wouldn’t even be talking about this right now. The rest is just pure conjecture. ‘Wasn’t his first choice’, ‘wouldn’t have been supported’, we cannot know any of this, so what’s the purpose other than using utter speculation to make a point?

I don’t care whether you’re a van Gaal sympathizer or Mourinho supporter, it makes no difference. Both those men lost the confidence of the players, the supporters and the board with the job they did. Klopp has never lost the scousers confidence since he’s been there, and that’s reflected in the type of performance we saw last night and a 97 point season. What else is there to talk about?



No manager in the history of the game got all their first choice picks all the time. Many players are simply not gettable for any price. Sometimes good management means doing good things with what you can get.

I’m not disputing they’ve had much better signings than us over the past couple of season, my point is I disagree with the below post.

Originally Posted by utd99

You don’t know that. I haven’t seen Klopp buy 11 players, stick them all on the bench while continuing with Brendon Rodgers players and whining that he can’t go out and buy another 11 willy nilly. Our managers were supported; however, in the real world, anyone who employs and supports you is entitled to ask at some point when we can expect some improvement.

Klopp HAS bought shite and then continued to use the previous managers players. He HAS been allowed to rectify his mistakes in the transfer market.

Klopp was allowed to move out disruptive big money signings (for that time) like Sahko. He’s finished 8th with a couple of 4th places finishes (before this season), signed complete and utter shit, yet their board has continued to back him. That would never have happened here, it’s been proven with how the last two managers have had their hands tied at over certain decisions at certain points of their time at the club

It’s also not speculation both of the previous managers have come out and confirmed it.

Of course Mourinho and Van Gaal made plenty of mistakes along the way, I’m not disputing that. But there is no way Klopp at United would have been allowed to finish 8th, sign Steven Caulker and play him as striker, sign players only for them to turn to shit AND the board continued to back him by allowing him to rectify his mistakes with world record signings.

Caulker was a stop gap loan thrown up front in a time of injuries and needing a goal. Nothing to be read from that imo.

Originally Posted by dunk

Caulker was a stop gap loan thrown up front in a time of injuries and needing a goal. Nothing to be read from that imo.

Would you have said that if Mourinho had done similar?

Point is Liverpool have totally bought into Klopp, they’ve allowed him to make mistakes and rectify them. They’ve allowed him to ship out players that are either not good enough or have poor attitude.

He’d never have been given that support or trust from our board.

Originally Posted by AK14

Would you have said that if Mourinho had done similar?

Point is Liverpool have totally bought into Klopp, they’ve allowed him to make mistakes and rectify them. They’ve allowed him to ship out players that are either not good enough or have poor attitude.

He’d never have been given that support or trust from our board.

What? Pretty sure he chucked Fellaini upfront on the regular with little more than a

Originally Posted by AK14

Yeah...

That’s kind of my point.

Woodward overruled Mourinho when it came to getting shot of Martial and Pogba and also vetoed us signing Mauguire.

A year on and it looks like all three will be happening.

Except we've lost a proven, highly successful manager

Taking into consideration Dunk's point about pre season training, maybe the tours don't help matters?
I know even Moyes had a %@#$&!s to moan about. LvG and Mourinho weren't happy either with it

All speculative obviously

Originally Posted by dunk

What? Pretty sure he chucked Fellaini upfront on the regular with little more than a

Least Fellaini actually tried.

Though, it could be difficult to tell at times

Originally Posted by dunk

What? Pretty sure he chucked Fellaini upfront on the regular with little more than a

Very comparable to throwing on loan Steven Calker up front tbf...

Originally Posted by AK14

Very comparable to throwing on loan Steven Calker up front tbf...

He was the only tall player at his disposal and decided to switch it up as a last resort.

Originally Posted by dunk

He was the only tall player at his disposal and decided to switch it up as a last resort.

Originally Posted by AK14

You're reaching pal, get over it.

Originally Posted by dunk

You're reaching pal, get over it.

Not really.

If Mourinho had brought in a defender on loan from QPR and played him up front you’d have completely lost your shit.

Originally Posted by AK14

Not really.

If Mourinho had brought in a defender on loan from QPR and played him up front you’d have completely lost your shit.

It would be rich indeed if he were to have complained about a lack of big grunts to hoof it to.

But he complained about literally everything else so why not.

Originally Posted by AK14

Not really.

If Mourinho had brought in a defender on loan from QPR and played him up front you’d have completely lost your shit.

Not really. If he'd have been starting games with him upfront, regularly, then maybe. No, definitely, but a one off, nah.

Not everyone lost their shit when LvG put Nick Powell on upfront while we had 10 players out injured, for instance. Sometimes you have to do what you have to do. It's when it's every game, as it was with Fellaini..