Whisper it...

Originally Posted by BarryX

He finished second in the toughest league in the world, took us to a European final and has the best away record in the history of the English top flight (all in his only second full season in charge). He's also assembled a squad that, on paper, many experts with far more knowledge than me believe is capable of winning the league and/or Champions League. And he's done so in the Utd way, promoting youth and exciting, attacking football.

Do I think he's a top quality manager? The facts answer the question for me: how can he not be (even if he does still make the odd mistake)?

Took us to a European final a cup we dropped into. We also lost to a bunch of journey man with a far inferior team.

The away record is great, I’ll give you that, decent assist to Covid for me.

I don’t for a minute foresee him having the boys to win the league or compete for the champions league. I think we have the squad to do both.

Originally Posted by BarryX

Did you miss the two home games when we scored a total of 8 goals?

We have some top quality players, amongst the best in the world.

Originally Posted by Hyman_Roth

What?

Beek off, lingard on rather than Greenwood, lingard moved into midfield, Fred (someone who can run) off for Martial (the laziest player we’ve got) etc etc.

I think Beek should've stayed on and Pogba should've been dragged off.

Have no problem with Lingard coming on instead of Greenwood, like I said, the job was to run around pressing their backline, more of a job for Lingard than Greenwood. It's grunt work like he had to do at West Ham, the type of work that would only be required if you play for team like West Ham or are having to play with 10 men. It would've just been a waste of a player like Greenwood to send him on to do that for half an hour.

I'd rather have seen Greenwood than Martial, but then I'd rather see Dan James than Martial. The last sub was just throwing shit to if it would stick, throwing on another striker on the off chance something might break our way in the last couple of minutes. At that point we looked good for a draw and it was worth the gamble on the off chance we could sneak a piss poor win. I don't think anyone was expecting one of our players to throw it all away and play them clean through on goal in the last minute of the game.

I thought Lingard could play a part this season, and he still could. But I'd much rather see him play in traffic now.

Pushing Lingard into midfield was a baffling change tbf and I’m not sure how anyone can keep a straight face when saying Ole hasn’t looked clueless at times over the last few years. Last night wasn’t the first occasion he made bat shit mental decisions during a game, but I guess that’s what you get when you have an inexperienced manager.

I’m not suggesting he’s out of his depth but as someone said further up the thread (or maybe on the match thread) his ‘plan b’ or more to the point his decisions when under pressure have mostly been poor.

Also 7 defeats in 11 champions league games and just one clean sheet is a shit record.

Originally Posted by Stickman

The away record is great, I’ll give you that, decent assist to Covid for me.
.

If our away record is so great because of Covid, why did no other team manage it....?


Amazing how people are suddenly more than happy to minimise his accomplishments while sticking the boot in. 'Done all he can'. Strange because everyone was basically saying in August he needs to win something this season - which by the way I think is absolutely fair enough - and yet 4 games in he's not going to accomplish that.


Odd.

Originally Posted by BarryX

He finished second in the toughest league in the world, took us to a European final and has the best away record in the history of the English top flight (all in his only second full season in charge). He's also assembled a squad that, on paper, many experts with far more knowledge than me believe is capable of winning the league and/or Champions League. And he's done so in the Utd way, promoting youth and exciting, attacking football.

Do I think he's a top quality manager? The facts answer the question for me: how can he not be (even if he does still make the odd mistake)?

Was it really the toughest league in the world?

Arsenal and Spurs in free all

Liverpool mourning the death of three centre backs and off their special asthma pumps

Chelsea started poorly under Lampard but managed to turn it around under Tuchel

Leicester seem to always bottle the top 4 under Rodgers.

Originally Posted by AK14

Was it really the toughest league in the world?

Arsenal and Spurs in free all

Liverpool mourning the death of three centre backs and off their special asthma pumps

Chelsea started poorly under Lampard but managed to turn it around under Tuchel

Leicester seem to always bottle the top 4 under Rodgers.

All English Champions League final and almost an all English Europa League final as well.

Originally Posted by AK14

Was it really the toughest league in the world?

Arsenal and Spurs in free all

Liverpool mourning the death of three centre backs and off their special asthma pumps

Chelsea started poorly under Lampard but managed to turn it around under Tuchel

Leicester seem to always bottle the top 4 under Rodgers.

Originally Posted by Patty_b

Well in Barry

Completely agree and will never agree with the 'out of his depth' and 'clueless' nonsense that get's repeated. It's utter tosh.

The only sub I disagreed with yesterday was the DVB one, and maybe bringing on Martial instead of Greenwood, but I don't think they would have made a difference. The change to 5 at the back made sense, and even the Lingard sub made sense. We needed someone who could press their back line, that wasn't a job Ronaldo was going to do 60odd minutes into a game, and it's something Lingard can do well. It's pretty much the exact job he had at West Ham last season when everyone was praising him for how well he was playing. The issue was, is and always will be the midfield until it gets sorted out... And Lingard putting them through on goal in the last minute. That probably didn't help.

You’re straw manning. The question (what I was responding to anyway) is whether Ole is an elite European manager, not whether he is clueless or out of his depth.

And he’s clearly not up there. Yet.

He lacks in game management skills. It’s been his weakness since he joined. Maybe that will come with time and experience. Maybe not.
But it’s not there right now. Same bizarre mistakes over and over. Thought he would have learned from Villarreal.

I honestly thought Barry had consumed a few tipples last night with his talk of Matt Busby. Was waiting for him to bring up Ernest Magnall

Originally Posted by Patty_b

All English Champions League final and almost an all English Europa League final as well.

We finished one place above and one place below the other two teams in those finals.

Rejoice.

%@#$&!s was it the toughest league in the world. Finishing in the top three last season shouldn’t be seen as some sort of achievement considering mostly all the other contenders (bar two others) were shit.

Originally Posted by Whip Hubley

If our away record is so great because of Covid, why did no other team manage it....?


Amazing how people are suddenly more than happy to minimise his accomplishments while sticking the boot in. 'Done all he can'. Strange because everyone was basically saying in August he needs to win something this season - which by the way I think is absolutely fair enough - and yet 4 games in he's not going to accomplish that.


Odd.

Can’t quite put my finger on that chief but I don’t put it down to having a great manager.

Originally Posted by AK14

We finished one place above and one place below the other two teams in those finals.

Rejoice.

%@#$&!s was it the toughest league in the world. Finishing in the top three last season shouldn’t be seen as some sort of achievement considering mostly all the other contenders (bar two others) were shit.

When LVG finished 4th, people loved him... dutch genius.

When Jose finished 2nd it was apparently his greatest ever achievement, if you ask the man and his supporters.



When ole finishes 2nd, the league is shit

Originally Posted by Stickman

Can’t quite put my finger on that chief but I don’t put it down to having a great manager.

I'm not even saying he's a great manager. I'm saying people are belittling any sense of achievement. Essentially because of 1 bad result last night, it seems.


Even saffers was saying we were going to win the league after Newcastle


Flip floppers.

Originally Posted by Sparky***

This wasn't an isolated, one-off, rarity. This happens on the regular when we play away in the champions league these days. He's a lovely guy, but an elite level manager he is not.

And now with the players he has at his disposal, these performances are going to be quite rightly scrutinised.

how is pep classed as elite .. be 12 years since last champs league with the best players deepest pockets and constantly failing in the champs league ..

Originally Posted by Stickman

Can’t quite put my finger on that chief but I don’t put it down to having a great manager.

Interesting how many of those games we went behind in. Not sure if that's a positive or negative for the manager.

good job most werent posting when we finished bottom of the group 2005 .. with a team being built ..

Originally Posted by puressence

how is pep classed as elite .. be 12 years since last champs league with the best players deepest pockets and constantly failing in the champs league ..

Maybe the six league titles and numerous cups he's won since?

Not saying Pep isn't sometimes overrated by many, but denying him being one of the best managers in world football would be petty.

Originally Posted by shenwen

You’re straw manning. The question (what I was responding to anyway) is whether Ole is an elite European manager, not whether he is clueless or out of his depth.

And he’s clearly not up there. Yet.

I was replying to Barry and the points he made, and how I think it's nonsense to believe that he is out of his depth or clueless, which is a very common criticism, not insinuating that you called him either of these things.

Originally Posted by shenwen

He lacks in game management skills. It’s been his weakness since he joined. Maybe that will come with time and experience. Maybe not.
But it’s not there right now. Same bizarre mistakes over and over. Thought he would have learned from Villarreal.

This is another thing you hear a lot, but his record tends to contradict that. Pretty sure we have recovered the most points from losing positions since he became the manager. How can that be the case if he lacks in-game management skills? Maybe it's a case that he only gets hammered when it doesn't work out, and then doesn't get the credit when it does?

Originally Posted by AK14

We finished one place above and one place below the other two teams in those finals.

Rejoice.

%@#$&!s was it the toughest league in the world. Finishing in the top three last season shouldn’t be seen as some sort of achievement considering mostly all the other contenders (bar two others) were shit.

Which league is tougher than the Premier League then?

inishing second was a good acheivement last season, although ideally we should've been closer to City. It's odd how other teams in the league with 'elite managers' and more competitive squads were just shit last season, and that's the only reason we came second with a PE Teacher as manager.

Originally Posted by Whip Hubley

When LVG finished 4th, people loved him... dutch genius.

When Jose finished 2nd it was apparently his greatest ever achievement, if you ask the man and his supporters.



When ole finishes 2nd, the league is shit

It isn’t completely shit

But saying us getting second as though it’s some sort of achievement because it was ‘the toughest league in the world’ is ridiculous.

Originally Posted by Patty_b

I was replying to Barry and the points he made, and how I think it's nonsense to believe that he is out of his depth or clueless, which is a very common criticism, not insinuating that you called him either of these things.


This is another thing you hear a lot, but his record tends to contradict that. Pretty sure we have recovered the most points from losing positions since he became the manager. How can that be the case if he lacks in-game management skills? Maybe it's a case that he only gets hammered when it doesn't work out, and then doesn't get the credit when it does?






Which league is tougher than the Premier League then?

inishing second was a good acheivement last season, although ideally we should've been closer to City. It's odd how other teams in the league with 'elite managers' and more competitive squads were just shit last season, and that's the only reason we came second with a PE Teacher as manager.

Give over.

I probably thought it at the time too tbf, but nah.

Also I didn’t say the rest of the shit you posted.

Originally Posted by puressence

good job most werent posting when we finished bottom of the group 2005 .. with a team being built ..

Wasn’t that the very same year you and your cronies went to Carrington with a bedsheet?

Self awareness on this

Originally Posted by AK14

It isn’t completely shit

But saying us getting second as though it’s some sort of achievement because it was ‘the toughest league in the world’ is ridiculous.

Why? Everyone said 2nd would be a reasonable and decent result. He got it. Nobody really expected the start of last season for us to win the league barring a city meltdown.

Now it's not an achievement

Originally Posted by BarryX

Did you miss the two home games when we scored a total of 8 goals?

Bizarre argument Barry. What I’ve seen is a manager who finished a very credible 2nd last season but who also limped out of a winnable champs league group, messed up in both domestic cups and then messed up the europa final against £#%&!ing bobbins opposition.

The europa final is the final 10% I’m talking about - beating a demoralised Newcastle side and a ridiculously set up Leeds side isn’t (at home having just secured the re-turn of the greatest footballer of all time).

I don’t want him sacked - I’m just not altogether convinced by him.