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Unread 26-05-2019, 09:54 PM
Clownbones
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by S/Side.Red
Has started exactly 50% of our league games over the last three years. Most league matches started in a season - 20.

There are long-established standards for squad players, especially those who come through the academy as we saw with John O'Shea. At our height he was clearly one of our weaker players, but I never felt removing a decent homegrown squad player was a priority.
He starts most of our important matches. I would decide a squad player as someone who is clearly a back up to the best 11. Like John o shea. Nicky Butt etc.

Lingard is far too important to this side to be considered a squad player. And that reflects poorly on this side.

He starts many of our biggest games as our centrally, just off the front. Arguably the most important area of the pitch in a creative sense. He is nowhere near good enough for that.

Or at least where we aspire to be. It's all well and good saying he's good enough for now... but we're not good enough now. This is good enough. Improve it, Don't accept it.

We shouldn't remove him because he is homegrown any more than we should keep him because he's homegrown.

The fact he is not good enough to be as important as he is. He should be sold or have his game time significantly reduced (to the of an actual squad player)

Is he our biggest problem? No. Is he a problem? Yes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by S/Side.Red
Homegrown ones are always preferable as they're more likely to put the club before sulking and self-interest.
.
Which is another problem, as some of his recent performances have been as complacent and lazy as any one.
 
Unread 26-05-2019, 11:25 PM
S/Side.Red
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buck
He's 30 in three years.
He's 26. Could easily be a squad option for the next 5-6 years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clownbones
He starts most of our important matches. I would decide a squad player as someone who is clearly a back up to the best 11. Like John o shea. Nicky Butt etc.

Lingard is far too important to this side to be considered a squad player. And that reflects poorly on this side.

He starts many of our biggest games as our centrally, just off the front. Arguably the most important area of the pitch in a creative sense. He is nowhere near good enough for that.

Or at least where we aspire to be. It's all well and good saying he's good enough for now... but we're not good enough now. This is good enough. Improve it, Don't accept it.

We shouldn't remove him because he is homegrown any more than we should keep him because he's homegrown.

The fact he is not good enough to be as important as he is. He should be sold or have his game time significantly reduced (to the of an actual squad player)

Is he our biggest problem? No. Is he a problem? Yes.



Which is another problem, as some of his recent performances have been as complacent and lazy as any one.
I think he feels more important because other players haven't really stepped up. Lingard would be happy to be a squad player and in that role I don't see him as an issue. Squad building is pretty complex and the right characters in those roles are important. O'Shea started 18 games in his last league season for United. Lingard started 19 last season. That's his role long term if we get our act together.
 
Unread 26-05-2019, 11:33 PM
Brucie
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by S/Side.Red
He's 26. Could easily be a squad option for the next 5-6 years.



I think he feels more important because other players haven't really stepped up. Lingard would be happy to be a squad player and in that role I don't see him as an issue. Squad building is pretty complex and the right characters in those roles are important. O'Shea started 18 games in his last league season for United. Lingard started 19 last season. That's his role long term if we get our act together.
That's a big if
 
Unread 26-05-2019, 11:35 PM
S/Side.Red
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brucie
That's a big if
Of course, though I maintain a bloke starting 50% of the games is a squad player
 
Unread 26-05-2019, 11:37 PM
Brucie
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by S/Side.Red
Of course, though I maintain a bloke starting 50% of the games is a squad player
It's a fair point...

It's also a fair point to say he starts important games and was rushed back from injury because Ole sees him as a big part of his plans

Either way you look at it, its shocking. I see O Shea and Butt mentioned here... Just no.. Not even comparable
 
Unread 26-05-2019, 11:43 PM
S/Side.Red
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brucie
It's a fair point...

It's also a fair point to say he starts important games and was rushed back from injury because Ole sees him as a big part of his plans

Either way you look at it, its shocking. I see O Shea and Butt mentioned here... Just no.. Not even comparable
Well Lingard (who isn't quite as bad as this convo has depicted) brings that energy to that area. As Sanchez was supposed to I guess. And he has a pretty good record in big games. Ideally Lukaku comes in and is a proper United forward and we get the Sanchez of years ago. Had that been the case Lingard would have been the bit-part player he's really supposed to be for any big game.
 
Unread 27-05-2019, 12:12 AM
Buck
 
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If United win the big trophies again the team will have outgrown Lingard. And off the back of last season it will not take long to reach the latter point.

Butt - midfield
Fletcher - midfield
O'Shea - defence / midfield
P Nev - defence / midfield
Brown - defence

How many attackers in their late 20s did Fergie rely on as "squad players"? Blomqvist was younger than Lingard now. So that's Park and...

We had guys who were bought around 26-27 to offer an option (Smith, Saha) but injuries plagued them. And we had players who went from starting quality to being phased out (our current manager for example).

Lingard at this point in time, at age 26 and in this state of the team is not a great squad option. Why on earth would he be one in 3/4 years? Because the quality around him improves? In that case we should be aim higher than £#%&!ing Lingard. We've got Greenwood, Gomes, Chong who have much more potential and time to develop. In 5 years I'd hope at least one is a regular starter and maybe the other two are squad options with more to them than Lingard. Maybe Greenwood has more potential than Rashford and pushes Rashford to the bench. And Rashford now is far more viable than Lingard.
 
Unread 27-05-2019, 01:06 AM
Alex Jones was Right
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brucie
It's a fair point...

It's also a fair point to say he starts important games and was rushed back from injury because Ole sees him as a big part of his plans
I wouldn’t say he’s necessarily a big part of Ole’s plans. More that he’s one of the few players in the current squad who has pace and movement. He’ll slowly become more of a squad player the next few transfer windows, if not transferred out altogether.
 
Unread 27-05-2019, 05:28 AM
Albert Tatlock
 
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The goblin is a useful squad player. Keep him.
 
Unread 27-05-2019, 06:48 AM
waynes ear's
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Albert Tatlock
The goblin is a useful squad player. Keep him.
The gargantu@#%&! should be kept around, if only to serve as a reminder how far standards have fallen
 
Unread 27-05-2019, 07:31 AM
Clownbones
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by S/Side.Red
He's 26. Could easily be a squad option for the next 5-6 years.



I think he feels more important because other players haven't really stepped up. Lingard would be happy to be a squad player and in that role I don't see him as an issue. Squad building is pretty complex and the right characters in those roles are important. O'Shea started 18 games in his last league season for United. Lingard started 19 last season. That's his role long term if we get our act together.
He doesn't feel more important, he IS more important.

You seem to be shifting in your view of what a squad player Is? Is he one now or will he be happy to be one?

This is part of the issue. Now, he is more than a squad player and he simply isn't good enough for that. As long as he keeps producing 3 good performances in a row in every 20, score the odd worldie at Stamford bridge, he'll keep shifting our expectation of what is acceptable.

Take a step back and look at his overall game and he simply isn't very good. What Are his qualities? Movement off the ball? Mobility? Is that it?

He's not quick, he's not skilful and his passing and delivery are limited. He doesn't score enough, provide enough and Do you really every expect him to seriously make the difference in a match?

He's average. Bang average.

If he's simply back up to somebody much better then fine, but I'll suspect he'll be starting many of our biggest games next season as our main creative hub and we'll be scratching our heads as to why we're so far off a team who have Silva and De Bruyne doing that.

Oh, and I don't think he has a particularly good character. It's ok. Bear minimum.

Quote:
Originally Posted by S/Side.Red
Of course, though I maintain a bloke starting 50% of the games is a squad player
That doesn't really reflect his value though does it? He starts the majority of our games in our 'best 11'.

And a team scratching around for quality is likely to chop and change more.

Stats can be misleading. As you are happy to point out when Mourinho started Rashford more than any other player.
 
Unread 27-05-2019, 07:40 AM
Red Santos
 
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meh

should be squad player at best
 
Unread 27-05-2019, 02:49 PM
ericcantona
 
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Him and rashford getting a lot of stick on Twitter - thoroughly deserved in my book. Though there are plenty of precious #@&%!s saying they don’t deserve it and we shouldn’t be abusing the players. Which is part of the reason some of those £#%&!ers are still here when other clubs fans would’ve hounded them out seasons ago.
 
Unread 27-05-2019, 02:53 PM
Bunker Buster
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ericcantona
Him and rashford getting a lot of stick on Twitter - thoroughly deserved in my book. Though there are plenty of precious #@&%!s saying they don’t deserve it and we shouldn’t be abusing the players. Which is part of the reason some of those £#%&!ers are still here when other clubs fans would’ve hounded them out seasons ago.
Because of what they are wearing ? Or the fact they are there ?

How you giving grief to united players for attending the treble reunion....
 
Unread 27-05-2019, 02:56 PM
ericcantona
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunker Buster
Because of what they are wearing ? Or the fact they are there ?

How you giving grief to united players for attending the treble reunion....
Neither of those things.. more for the fact that they simply are not good enough for united and have been given free passes for a long time because they’re from Manchester and come through the academy. More directed at Lingard tbh and rightly so...
 
Unread 27-05-2019, 03:07 PM
Bunker Buster
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ericcantona
Neither of those things.. more for the fact that they simply are not good enough for united and have been given free passes for a long time because they’re from Manchester and come through the academy. More directed at Lingard tbh and rightly so...

Ah right, I don't really follow our players being abused online...
 
Unread 27-05-2019, 03:16 PM
Ethers
 
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Lingard comes in for a lot of stick because he just seems a bit of a weapon tbf. The clown act and dressing up like a prize #@&%! is fine when you’re performing. When you’re not, it really starts to grate so it’s no surprise he’s coming in for a lot of flak tbh.

Compare him to Beckham ffs. Yes there was a lot of off the field nonsense, but he always delivered on the pitch.
 
Unread 27-05-2019, 03:19 PM
elhombre
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethers
Lingard comes in for a lot of stick because he just seems a bit of a weapon tbf. The clown act and dressing up like a prize #@&%! is fine when you’re performing. When you’re not, it really starts to grate so it’s no surprise he’s coming in for a lot of flak tbh.

Compare him to Beckham ffs. Yes there was a lot of off the field nonsense, but he always delivered on the pitch.
just said the same thing to someone else on this matter.

spot on.
 
Unread 27-05-2019, 03:20 PM
ericcantona
 
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One comment on his insta says Solskjær has scored more goals at OT in last 3 months than him but don’t worry young prospect JLingz just needs time
 
Unread 27-05-2019, 03:21 PM
Sparky***
 
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Delighted you've all come round
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