Philosophy or psychology?

Everyone is getting very excited over Ole’s lack of a plan, or structure. Or, in modernspeak, a philosophy. He should be telling his players where to run, where to stand and, generally, what to do.

But for me, football at its best is where the football is left to players. Decent players know instinctively where to run, where to stand and, generally what to do.

If they don’t, maybe they are not as decent players as they think (or the media tells us) they are.

The truly great teams never played to a formula. That just exposes you to be found out by someone with another formula.

Real success flows from a manager that manages, not someone that dictates. Someone that creates a belief in his players. Not someone that tells them what to do.

Think Busby, think Ferguson. Think of the great Brazilian and Dutch teams.

If you don’t want Ole, fair enough. But if you are looking at the next bright young tactical genius you are looking in the wrong place.

Football of yesteryear may have been about that but I don't know of any consistently successful modern teams that aren't well coached to a plan.

Originally Posted by tatty

Football of yesteryear may have been about that but I don't know of any consistently successful modern teams that aren't well coached to a plan.

Maybe that’s because everyone has succumbed to the myth. Funny how every time anyone suggests the “old” ways might actually have worked we get told we are blocking progress. I’d have Fergie anyday against Klopp or Tuchel. Can you imagine him with our current squad? Out with the wasters (those supposedly decent fotballers that aren’t) and getting the best out of the real ones.

Originally Posted by avocado

Maybe that’s because everyone has succumbed to the myth. Funny how every time anyone suggests the “old” ways might actually have worked we get told we are blocking progress. I’d have Fergie anyday against Klopp or Tuchel. Can you imagine him with our current squad? Out with the wasters (those supposedly decent fotballers that aren’t) and getting the best out of the real ones.

Jesus Christ stop harping back to the past
There isn’t going to another Fergie so stop pinning for one

Football has moved on and we have to get with the times or we’ll continue to fall further behind no matter how much we spend

At the end of the day it’s better to have a clear plan than not have a plan and play off the cuff

Originally Posted by avocado

Everyone is getting very excited over Ole’s lack of a plan, or structure. Or, in modernspeak, a philosophy. He should be telling his players where to run, where to stand and, generally, what to do.

But for me, football at its best is where the football is left to players. Decent players know instinctively where to run, where to stand and, generally what to do.

If they don’t, maybe they are not as decent players as they think (or the media tells us) they are.

The truly great teams never played to a formula. That just exposes you to be found out by someone with another formula.

Real success flows from a manager that manages, not someone that dictates. Someone that creates a belief in his players. Not someone that tells them what to do.

Think Busby, think Ferguson. Think of the great Brazilian and Dutch teams.

If you don’t want Ole, fair enough. But if you are looking at the next bright young tactical genius you are looking in the wrong place.

You have absolutely £#%&!ing no idea how football works you daft @#%&!.

Originally Posted by Baron

You have absolutely £#%&!ing no idea how football works you daft @#%&!.

The great dutch teams just let players get on with it

Originally Posted by avocado

Everyone is getting very excited over Ole’s lack of a plan, or structure. Or, in modernspeak, a philosophy. He should be telling his players where to run, where to stand and, generally, what to do.

But for me, football at its best is where the football is left to players. Decent players know instinctively where to run, where to stand and, generally what to do.

If they don’t, maybe they are not as decent players as they think (or the media tells us) they are.

The truly great teams never played to a formula. That just exposes you to be found out by someone with another formula.

Real success flows from a manager that manages, not someone that dictates. Someone that creates a belief in his players. Not someone that tells them what to do.

Think Busby, think Ferguson. Think of the great Brazilian and Dutch teams.

If you don’t want Ole, fair enough. But if you are looking at the next bright young tactical genius you are looking in the wrong place.

This.
It's hilarious the way the tactical geniuses on here go on

Originally Posted by Medlock

This.
It's hilarious the way the tactical geniuses on here go on

You don't need to be a tactical genius to realise that football is a little bit more complex than putting 11 players on the pitch and assuming that they "instinctively where to run, where to stand and, generally what to do."

Originally Posted by avocado

Everyone is getting very excited over Ole’s lack of a plan, or structure. Or, in modernspeak, a philosophy. He should be telling his players where to run, where to stand and, generally, what to do.

But for me, football at its best is where the football is left to players. Decent players know instinctively where to run, where to stand and, generally what to do.

If they don’t, maybe they are not as decent players as they think (or the media tells us) they are.

The truly great teams never played to a formula. That just exposes you to be found out by someone with another formula.

Real success flows from a manager that manages, not someone that dictates. Someone that creates a belief in his players. Not someone that tells them what to do.

Think Busby, think Ferguson. Think of the great Brazilian and Dutch teams.

If you don’t want Ole, fair enough. But if you are looking at the next bright young tactical genius you are looking in the wrong place.

A happy medium from where we are right now wouldn't go amiss in terms of football being left up to the players, thats how disorganised we look.

The other extreme.... look at Guardiola's sides, they go out and help themselves to 65% of the ball, sometimes even more and if you don't graft your nuts off to be in position to receive the ball, or win it back, you're out. They have a very specific way of doing things and are almost robotic in the runs they make in behind and passes they look for inside the fullbacks.

I think leaving it up to the players to express themselves is an outdated style save for your truly special talents that play worse if you stifle their decision making options.

There’s a difference between coaching players to improve their technique and understanding “Paul you need to track your runner” , “Harry don’t let the ball come to you” , “Aaron let’s aim a cross at the penalty spot and keep practising until you can do it”

And then a tactical team approach as to how you approach each game which is related to set up and team selection. The whole coaching term need to work on this, which is why our midfield selection on Saturday was so baffling.

Fergie was a master at game plans always had something up his sleeve but also inspired players to improve - look at G.Neville who went from centre half to an outstanding full back learning how to cross.

Ole has definitely ‘ improved’ some players but it’s the other side that seems missing.

Originally Posted by Stickman

A happy medium from where we are right now would good in terms of football being left to the players, the other extreme.... look at Guardiola's sides, they go out and help themselves to 65% of the ball, sometimes even more and if you don't graft your nuts off you're out. They have a very specific way of doing things and are almost robotic in the runs they make in behind and passes they look for inside the fullbacks.

I think leaving it up to the players to express themselves is an outdated style save for your truly special talents that play worse if you stifle their decision making options.

The counter question to the OP would be: if Ole doesn’t have a plan (which seems to be the premise of the post) then what exactly does he have that justifies his job and huge salary?

we don't need a philosophy, but we do need some basic training. having some idea of what you are meant to be doing is what allows those moments of individual brilliance.

Originally Posted by jem

we don't need a philosophy, but we do need some basic training. having some idea of what you are meant to be doing is what allows those moments of individual brilliance.

This.
I don’t think I’ve ever once read anyone on here saying that Ole needs to have a philosophy. It’s a straw man being reference to distract from the lack of clear tactics.

If you set up with Sancho on the left and Greenwood on the right surely the width comes from the full backs overlapping which leaving Matic to defend the fort, as Pogba wanders about, a bit baffling.

Philosophy is fine but you have to get the basics right. Remember Fergie in one clip shouting to Irwin “Dennis keep playing football”

Remember in 96 we lost 3 games on the spin for the first time in PL history? Fergie took time to go back to basics and sort out the defending against Arsenal and we won 1-0 and stopped the rot?

To my mind he had the knowledge, skill and view as to what the problem was and how to fix it - Ole doesn’t have a clue what the problem is let alone how to fix it IMHO.

Just because a team looks like it plays simply, doesn’t mean a hell of a lot of work hasn’t gone in to making that happen.

If coaching doesn’t matter, then how are Brentford able to compete with Chelsea and Liverpool. Surely their better players will just instinctively know what to do and overcome these players?

Why don’t our front three just instinctively know how to rip into teams?

The best two managers in this league are Klopp and Pep. If you think they are just telling them to go out there and enjoy it, then that’s just madness.

And having a ‘philosophy’ is no the same as getting a message across to your players that we play in a certain way. Look at the way we pressed at the weekend. We half committed. We didn’t really sit back or press, it’s not some philosophical wistful musing to get your players to do a job and make it clear what that job is.

Or maybe the players should just figure all that out.

Jesus h Christ.....

Originally Posted by Bunker Buster

Jesus h Christ.....

Just give him the water, he’ll figure it out …

Originally Posted by shenwen

This.
I don’t think I’ve ever once read anyone on here saying that Ole needs to have a philosophy. It’s a straw man being reference to distract from the lack of clear tactics.

People on here maybe haven't, but its certainly been said elserwhere.

Has a very I8Kopites away at Fulham thread vibe this one.

My advice would be for Avocado to get a quick forum name change and re-launch his Fred career by joining in the pile on here by slamming the shit out of the op on this very thread.

I’d go with a non veg/fruit name to hide your tracks. [taps nose]