Sir Frog gets a kicking in today's papers.

Originally Posted by Tumescent Throb

you can rationalise it to fit whatever you like, #@&%!

Wow pal, wtf? I thought we were tight

Originally Posted by My Name is Keith

Wow pal, wtf? I thought we were tight

lolz smilies and everything etc

Maybe Smalling and Jones would have been fully embedded and our first choice centre halfs if they hadn't been in and out of the side and moving positions every other week.

How are 2 young players meant to develop if one week they play centre half, the next they are out of the side, the next week play right back, then play midfield, then out of the side for two weeks, then back in at centre half with a different partner.

We had 2/3 years to let them gain experience with Vidic and Rio, playing them consistently, instead Ferguson left and Vidic and Rio we're still the first choice pairing. Not to mention Jones playing midfield as we hadn't strengthened the midfield since 2007 since then, Hargreaves injured, Fletcher ill, Scholes retired once, Cleverly injured.

Originally Posted by MUFCOK

Maybe Smalling and Jones would have been fully embedded and our first choice centre halfs if they hadn't been in and out of the side and moving positions every other week.

How are 2 young players meant to develop if one week they play centre half, the next they are out of the side, the next week play right back, then play midfield, then out of the side for two weeks, then back in at centre half with a different partner.

We had 2/3 years to let them gain experience with Vidic and Rio, playing them consistently, instead Ferguson left and Vidic and Rio we're still the first choice pairing. Not to mention Jones playing midfield as we hadn't strengthened the midfield since 2007 since then, Hargreaves injured, Fletcher ill, Scholes retired once, Cleverly injured.

This is the point, the evolution of the side grew increasingly hard as long as the veterans remained at the club. It has been said by Roy Keane that Ferguson's biggest weakness was loyalty, by which he meant that Fergie didn't know the meaning of the word. He's wrong, Ferguson was too loyal. At the same time it has to be acknowledged that those veterans were still amongst the best in their positions in the league, and that they were part of a side that kept on winning trophies right up until Fergie retired. As I said, it was tricky. It looks obvious on paper to just say "£#%&! them off", but it's not that easy. In some ways the mercenary nature of modern footballers makes these decisions a lot easier, but United has 'always' at least tried to be different. Until now, at least. The sheer number and size of the signings made these past 3 windows will probably change that. It will take a long time to build that kind of mentality again, if they ever can.

Originally Posted by Tumescent Throb

So what you're saying is that losing the league in 92, 95 and 98 was all Kidd's fault?

No.

That Steve McLaren did in one season what Kidd had failed to do in the previous 5.

No.

And that Mike Phelan won 3 league titles, the world club cup, reached 2 european cup finals and won 2 league cups, thereby making him tactically superior to Quieroz.

No.

Originally Posted by Jammy Dodger

No.




No.



No.

yes. that represents a natural extension of your argument

Originally Posted by Tumescent Throb

This is the point, the evolution of the side grew increasingly hard as long as the veterans remained at the club. It has been said by Roy Keane that Ferguson's biggest weakness was loyalty, by which he meant that Fergie didn't know the meaning of the word. He's wrong, Ferguson was too loyal. At the same time it has to be acknowledged that those veterans were still amongst the best in their positions in the league, and that they were part of a side that kept on winning trophies right up until Fergie retired. As I said, it was tricky. It looks obvious on paper to just say "£#%&! them off", but it's not that easy. In some ways the mercenary nature of modern footballers makes these decisions a lot easier, but United has 'always' at least tried to be different. Until now, at least. The sheer number and size of the signings made these past 3 windows will probably change that. It will take a long time to build that kind of mentality again, if they ever can.

I don't think we should have just got rid of the old guard but we could have made the transition smoother by having the old guard ease the younger players through.

I also think the replacements of some of the senior players wasn't good enough, Rafael for G.Nev, Evra wasn't replaced, the central midfield we know wasn't replaced, Valencia for Ronaldo, Young for Giggs, I'm not blaming Ferguson fully as maybe the funds were not available by the glazers and he had to get by with what was allowed, only people behind the scenes will ever know.

I think the fact none of us can deny is, when you do things on the cheap and the quality isn't kept to the same standard the product drops which is what has happened now. Even the standard of manager after Ferguson dropped dramatically

We wouldn't be owned by the Glazers if he'd been sacked in 2004/5

Originally Posted by MUFCOK

I don't think we should have just got rid of the old guard but we could have made the transition smoother by having the old guard ease the younger players through.

I also think the replacements of some of the senior players wasn't good enough, Rafael for G.Nev, Evra wasn't replaced, the central midfield we know wasn't replaced, Valencia for Ronaldo, Young for Giggs, I'm not blaming Ferguson fully as maybe the funds were not available by the glazers and he had to get by with what was allowed, only people behind the scenes will ever know.

I think the fact none of us can deny is, when you do things on the cheap and the quality isn't kept to the same standard the product drops which is what has happened now. Even the standard of manager after Ferguson dropped dramatically

yes, but again the reality is that the players that were coming towards the end were absolutely top drawer and completely on board with the, ahem, philosophy of the club and the team. it's also pertinent to note that discounting ferdinand (who a few people got rich quick off the back of at the time), most of those who needed replacing were bought in for relative peanuts or brought through the ranks.

Originally Posted by Jammy Dodger

So from 1999 to 2013 the only thing you thought worth highlighting about his legacy was his leaving parade. About right tbh.

Fergie of the 90s, up there with busby. Fergie of this century, not so much. A few periods of proper united football thrown in amongst the 451 borefest in Europe and the dull functional football leading up to his retirement. Also wasted the best midfield quartet we ever had when they were entering their peak. I'll be kind and ignore his favoured agents bullshit and glazer c**ksucking as their chief propaganda officer.

By best midfield do you mean Beckham Scholes Keane Giggs?

Domestically they were great but they never consistently dominated games in the knock out stages in Europe.

Whereas in the late 2000s we were very close to doing what no team has done in a long time - retaining the CL

Originally Posted by 92ToBury

We wouldn't be owned by the Glazers if he'd been sacked in 2004/5

True.