Pushing on from this season and looking back...

Originally Posted by jem

that's all.... just .

Ruud was isolated at times - like at Anfield in the Cup. but was that game really much different to the 0-0 draw last season or even Saturday's game?

or a dozen others at Anfield down through the years?

as for europe, last season was the first time we've struggled to find the net consistently in Europe going back over a decade.

the problem is always (again, except last season) defence, not attack. always has been and probably always will be.

some blame formations. I just blame bad finishing. we've scored 11 goals in 7 games in the CL this season. we've missed at least one total sitter in each of those 7 games.

The team was built around Ruud, but it was by no means perfect. We could never find that perfect partner for him and our midfield was no longer dominating the world. Its a team game guys - wtf are you lot debating

The one thing we can say about Ruud is he was great when he was putting away every chance and even making magical goals all by himself. But the problem with a guy like him is if you have poor movement (and we did) you suddenly find yourselves being easy to stop.

Teams will ask you questions and you'll stand there with no answers. Hence the sudden increase in draws and 1-0 losses etc. That is ultimately Ruud's downfall in a Utd shirt. Its no good standing in the box asking for that inch perfect pass when you have a guy on you, you have to be on the move all the time. Then he stopped putting away the every chance and making goals by himself.

Its stupid to blame the formation on somehow destroying Ruud. Thats just anti-fergie propoganda. he had a bad attitude and didnt give a £#%&! anymore, you're not much of a man if all you can do is blame your failures on someone else.

was not built around ruud. that's a ridiculous suggestion.

the problem was 100% coaching. not ruud's bad attitude. not his injury. fergie.

and our problems have been centred around the midfield, not around bad finishing.

Originally Posted by jem

was not built around ruud. that's a ridiculous suggestion.

the problem was 100% coaching. not ruud's bad attitude. not his injury. fergie.

and our problems have been centred around the midfield, not around bad finishing.

what problems?

you're saying a lot of things without the evidence to back it up. Here's my evidence.

When Ruud was out we played the best football we'd played since 99. Which to me suggests our midfield was not that bad.We were ripping teams apart and I genuinely believed we would win the Champions League. Sadly Ruud returned too early and £#%&!ed that up for us.

Watch the Arsenal FA Cup final again - thats the worst individual performance I have ever seen from a Man Utd player in my life. Its a disgrace, he barely broke into a jog all game. He didnt try.

We destroyed Arsenal, we dominated the whole match, but we couldnt score. That was our problem, not our midfield, not our defence, but the fact we couldnt answer the questions asked by opposition defences. It happened ALOT at that time. Failing to score was our undoing.

You can blame that on the midfield partly, but when you change strikers or remove ruud and suddenly we can score - i think you start to see where the problem was. movement is the key to winning and losing.

Originally Posted by jem

was not built around ruud. that's a ridiculous suggestion.

the problem was 100% coaching. not ruud's bad attitude. not his injury. fergie.

and our problems have been centred around the midfield, not around bad finishing.

Disagree. I don't think Ruud had an attitude problem until his last season. And I don't think United had a problem scoring goals until then, either. I don't think the team was built around Ruud, but it was built to use his goal-scoring power - exactly as it should have been. The records prove emphatically that it worked until his injury.

The problem was with the defence. It always has been. Even such luminaries as Galatasaray, Gothenburg and Rotor Volgograd ripped Bruce, Pallister and Schmeichel to ribbons.

Originally Posted by Tumescent Throb

Disagree. I don't think Ruud had an attitude problem until his last season. And I don't think United had a problem scoring goals until then, either. I don't think the team was built around Ruud, but it was built to use his goal-scoring power - exactly as it should have been. The records prove emphatically that it worked until his injury.

The problem was with the defence. It always has been. Even such luminaries as Galatasaray, Gothenburg and Rotor Volgograd ripped Bruce, Pallister and Schmeichel to ribbons.

Oooh heresy.

But spot on as regards the "infallible" Bruce & Pallister combination.

I loved that side but the 99 side were the technically and tactically better side.

Not getting VDS when we had the chance was puzzling to me and obviously a big mistake.

ruud looked fine with beckham in the team but his goals stopped when he stopped being fed. Ruud is not a striker like saha, he's a six yard box predator and always has been - feed him the ball when he gets in there and he'll put it in the net most times but playing him alone up front £#%&!ed his game up and then adding to that having ronaldo who at the time was constantly cutting inside and shooting himself rather than getting to the byline and crossing just took away his game even more.

Sticking with silvestre for too long was another mistake, far too patchy in form and really not consistently good enough. Wes Brown is another one, although a top lad that i respect he's never instilled confidence.

Playing smith as a midfielder; positionally out of his depth.

Of course not accepting keane was slowing down and planning properly for replacements rather than rolling the dice on Djemba, Kleberson and Miller.

Allowing Hargreaves to renew his contract with Bayern despite claiming they've been in for him for a long time. Very costly error.

Threatening to retire, then changing his mind did nothing but unsettle the team.

Fighting the irish mafia over the horse also unsettled the team and of course sparked the takeover which made him and his still Irish mates a shit load of money.

and finally tactically confusing the players with strange formations and fielding a different team every week.


I have to say that on forums like this one, most united fans were asking for what we are getting now, the frustration for everyone has been the slow response to what we all thought were fairly obvious problems.

Having said that though, we have never been out of the top five the whole time all of that was going on which i think proves ferguson as a man still capable of getting results even with a below par side. The signings of evra, vidich and carrick have paid off and with ronaldo playing the best football of his career so far it looks like we are going to be strong for some time to come - especially if they do manage to bring hargreaves in.

Originally Posted by Lou_Macari_Chippy

Not getting VDS when we had the chance was puzzling to me and obviously a big mistake.

ruud looked fine with beckham in the team but his goals stopped when he stopped being fed. Ruud is not a striker like saha, he's a six yard box predator and always has been - feed him the ball when he gets in there and he'll put it in the net most times but playing him alone up front £#%&!ed his game up and then adding to that having ronaldo who at the time was constantly cutting inside and shooting himself rather than getting to the byline and crossing just took away his game even more.

Sticking with silvestre for too long was another mistake, far too patchy in form and really not consistently good enough. Wes Brown is another one, although a top lad that i respect he's never instilled confidence.

Playing smith as a midfielder; positionally out of his depth.

Of course not accepting keane was slowing down and planning properly for replacements rather than rolling the dice on Djemba, Kleberson and Miller.

Allowing Hargreaves to renew his contract with Bayern despite claiming they've been in for him for a long time. Very costly error.

Threatening to retire, then changing his mind did nothing but unsettle the team.

Fighting the irish mafia over the horse also unsettled the team and of course sparked the takeover which made him and his still Irish mates a shit load of money.

and finally tactically confusing the players with strange formations and fielding a different team every week.


I have to say that on forums like this one, most united fans were asking for what we are getting now, the frustration for everyone has been the slow response to what we all thought were fairly obvious problems.

Having said that though, we have never been out of the top five the whole time all of that was going on which i think proves ferguson as a man still capable of getting results even with a below par side. The signings of evra, vidich and carrick have paid off and with ronaldo playing the best football of his career so far it looks like we are going to be strong for some time to come - especially if they do manage to bring hargreaves in.

I could pick holes in every single one of those comments, and some of them would be craterous. But you write them so matter-of-factly that I really don't have the will!

Originally Posted by Tumescent Throb

I could pick holes in every single one of those comments, and some of them would be craterous. But you write them so matter-of-factly that I really don't have the will!

I just say it the way i see it!

even if i'm off the mark on some of it, there are some threads of truth there too...

Originally Posted by Lou_Macari_Chippy

I just say it the way i see it!

even if i'm off the mark on some of it, there are some threads of truth there too...

The bit about "allowing Hargreaves to renew his contract" - at Bayern - made me laugh the most.