The fragility of this United team

We're that fragile that in our two previous games we came from behind to win. Ok.

Originally Posted by S/Side.Red

They didn't bottle anything or throw in any towels yesterday. In fact there was a decent spirit about the team for most of the game, but clearly the confidence was drained by our start. United are not above taking the odd @#%&!ting. Nobody is; ask Barca or City recently.

The thread's a state, tbh. Nobody tipping us for the league in the summer, yet arse seeing when we're pushed off the top of the table.

I don't think we bottled it I just think the manager had no plan B. Even under big Ron we'd try and dictate the pace, slow the play and then try and hit the oppo. Yesterday he brought on a defensive midfielder and a full back whilst hooking a forward and then throwing on a kid, short on games for 10 mins.

Totally baffled when he blew the whistle on Mata.

Originally Posted by Ethers

We're that fragile that in our two previous games we came from behind to win. Ok.

I know Sparky has been in doom mode since August after our dodgy start, but people really need to take a look around them.

It's almost as if people ignore things outside the United bubble. The previously imperious City looking shit in Europe, losing at home to West Ham and getting @#%&!ted by a Spurs side who were struggling for goals. Give Chelsea, who were this season's team to beat under the mighty Mourinho iirc, a shout and ask if they're enjoying the relegation zone. Ask Juventus the same thing about Italy where they're mid-table. Or the European champions, who have lost two of their last three league matches.

Better sides than United (including the two CL finalists) are finding it tough this season. We're the ones who are actually progressing. But of course despite everyone tipping us for 3rd at best this season, it's a disappointment that we've relinquished top spot.

Originally Posted by Ethers

We're that fragile that in our two previous games we came from behind to win. Ok.

I must have missed that goal Sunderland scored when we beat them 3-0

Originally Posted by S/Side.Red

I know Sparky has been in doom mode since August after our dodgy start, but people really need to take a look around them.

It's almost as if people ignore things outside the United bubble. The previously imperious City looking shit in Europe, losing at home to West Ham and getting @#%&!ted by a Spurs side who were struggling for goals. Give Chelsea, who were this season's team to beat under the mighty Mourinho iirc, a shout and ask if they're enjoying the relegation zone. Ask Juventus the same thing about Italy where they're mid-table. Or the European champions, who have lost two of their last three league matches.

Better sides than United (including the two CL finalists) are finding it tough this season. We're the ones who are actually progressing. But of course despite everyone tipping us for 3rd at best this season, it's a disappointment that we've relinquished top spot.

.

Originally Posted by Wingers

I don't think we bottled it I just think the manager had no plan B. Even under big Ron we'd try and dictate the pace, slow the play and then try and hit the oppo. Yesterday he brought on a defensive midfielder and a full back whilst hooking a forward and then throwing on a kid, short on games for 10 mins.

Totally baffled when he blew the whistle on Mata.

I don't know if there are many plan Bs that will get you back from 3-0 down at Arsenal when the players are collectively and individually having an off day. Fair enough on Mata, but tbh nobody played well. Rooney on the left actually wasn't a bad change. He doesn't slow the team down as much and his work-rate is more effective. Valencia was as shit as ever going forward but he'll handle himself better one-v-one against Alexis. It was a weak bench, which is an issue, but I don't think subs were where anything was lost.

But people complained about United being too cautious and too negative, which was always %@#$&!s. Yesterday they tried to dominate and impose themselves without anything like the security and cover needed. Let's have a touch more control and discipline for a bit pls.

Originally Posted by £#%&! KFC

I must have missed that goal Sunderland scored when we beat them 3-0

Yeah I meant 2 of 3. Arsed. Point still stands.

How can anybody say we're progressing? Hundreds of millions spent, and we still look shit.
Need to sort shit out and get back in the game, so we bring Tony V and pube head on! Ok then.
Arsenal are the first top side we've played this season, and look what happens. We've had the easiest set of fixtures of all the top sides, so there's no excuse for us to still look like a bag of shite game after game.

LVG is a clueless, egotistical idiot. The way people defend this @#%&!, and still think we should be stuffing everyone in the league is embarrassing.
It'd be nice if we could actually attack teams, but no. Just the usual boring, slow plodding around.

Compare how Arsenal attacked, to how we did. It's actually embarrassing.

Originally Posted by NegativeNorris

How can anybody say we're progressing? Hundreds of millions spent, and we still look shit.
Need to sort shit out and get back in the game, so we bring Tony V and pube head on! Ok then.
Arsenal are the first top side we've played this season, and look what happens. We've had the easiest set of fixtures of all the top sides, so there's no excuse for us to still look like a bag of shite game after game.

LVG is a clueless, egotistical idiot. The way people defend this @#%&!, and still think we should be stuffing everyone in the league is embarrassing.
It'd be nice if we could actually attack teams, but no. Just the usual boring, slow plodding around.

Compare how Arsenal attacked, to how we did. It's actually embarrassing.

not as embarrassing as your post :shakehead:

i know almost everybody on here hated the squad Ferie left, but like it or not they were proven winners..

im not at all sure the players that are coming in are even as good as the ones we more or less gave away!...a lot of people thought we would be bringing in these superstars to replace the players we binned but in reality they are mostly novices in this league!

we have spent a fortune and have 2 of our worst ever wingers playing as full backs...id say Blind is a full back playing at centre half!..im not sure what the policy is in midfield ?and there is the Rooney problem who seems to be awful in every position he is shoe horned into...oh and Fellaini is our second choice striker..

i like LvG, he is big enough for the job but our squad is threadbare with almost no injuries or suspensions and either that is his fault or then he is being dictated to by the suits ...either way that is not good news

Originally Posted by S/Side.Red

I don't know if there are many plan Bs that will get you back from 3-0 down at Arsenal when the players are collectively and individually having an off day. Fair enough on Mata, but tbh nobody played well. Rooney on the left actually wasn't a bad change. He doesn't slow the team down as much and his work-rate is more effective. Valencia was as shit as ever going forward but he'll handle himself better one-v-one against Alexis. It was a weak bench, which is an issue, but I don't think subs were where anything was lost.

But people complained about United being too cautious and too negative, which was always balls. Yesterday they tried to dominate and impose themselves without anything like the security and cover needed. Let's have a touch more control and discipline for a bit pls.

There's obviously no blueprint for giving Arsenal a 3 goal start and then winning but that was with 20mins gone. Not as steeper mountain to climb. What I wanted to see was clever tactics from the bench, at least. We could have gone 4-4-2 with Depay on the right, Ant on the left Wayne in the middle with Mata doing what Mata does. Also Rooney should have given Schwieny a %@#$&!ing for being so reckless with his play, as club captain. If that didn't show signs then take Depay off for Wilson and put Rooney wide.

There was nothing clever from LvG. Just hope it's a lesson learned.

Originally Posted by Wingers

There's obviously no blueprint for giving Arsenal a 3 goal start and then winning but that was with 20mins gone. Not as steeper mountain to climb. What I wanted to see was clever tactics from the bench, at least. We could have gone 4-4-2 with Depay on the right, Ant on the left Wayne in the middle with Mata doing what Mata does. Also Rooney should have given Schwieny a %@#$&!ing for being so reckless with his play, as club captain. If that didn't show signs then take Depay off for Wilson and put Rooney wide.

There was nothing clever from LvG. Just hope it's a lesson learned.

In terms of the pressing? It's under instruction. When he was doing that Rooney was dropping into the space he left. That's fine and just one aspect of the pressing, which has to be a team organisation. That means, as van Gaal suggested after the game, that the roles of the attacking players in winning the ball back are just as important as everyone else. The whole thing has to function, and if one or two pieces don't, it's £#%&!ed. So if Schweini presses but others don't respond in the planned way, it can look silly.

Originally Posted by S/Side.Red

In terms of the pressing? It's under instruction. When he was doing that Rooney was dropping into the space he left. That's fine and just one aspect of the pressing, which has to be a team organisation. That means, as van Gaal suggested after the game, that the roles of the attacking players in winning the ball back are just as important as everyone else. The whole thing has to function, and if one or two pieces don't, it's £#%&!ed. So if Schweini presses but others don't respond in the planned way, it can look silly.

Yes I get that but once they are over the line the captain pulls rank. What benefit did we gain from our midfielder pushing onto their full back and our forward dropping into a midfield where we were struggling to get a foothold? As captain and as a forward Rooney should have been pressing and telling our midfield to stay put.
There was an instance when schwiens was gesticulating to Rooney to push up with him as he was running to close down a ball out of arsenals defence. The ball was hit straight through the gap leaving Mata to try and make up the space In front of our own back 4.
I can't remember any balls being crossed with pace from 30 yards up either flank into the box around the penalty area either. Arsenals back 4 are shaky at the best of times.

Originally Posted by Wingers

Yes I get that but once they are over the line the captain pulls rank. What benefit did we gain from our midfielder pushing onto their full back and our forward dropping into a midfield where we were struggling to get a foothold? As captain and as a forward Rooney should have been pressing and telling our midfield to stay put.
There was an instance when schwiens was gesticulating to Rooney to push up with him as he was running to close down a ball out of arsenals defence. The ball was hit straight through the gap leaving Mata to try and make up the space In front of our own back 4.
I can't remember any balls being crossed with pace from 30 yards up either flank into the box around the penalty area either. Arsenals back 4 are shaky at the best of times.

I hear you, but if Rooney went against the team plan you can be sure he'd be the one getting slated after by the boss rather than Schweini

When you have this intensely structured, organised pressing it really can go wrong if people aren't doing it right. Schweini pressing was probably supposed to set a chain reaction that everyone followed, but when that doesn't happen, or when someone gets beaten as Rooney did too easily ahead of their goal, it can open up because ultimately we're taking risks with the team's shape.

I would assume after the game when van Gaal said that some players didn't do "as we agreed" etc that it was related to positional play. And given that Carrick and Schweini lasted the full 90 I think we may assume he was talking about others not helping the midfield.

Originally Posted by dunk

All of them looked heavy legged from the off, and throughout.

They didn't look heavy legged (whatever the £#%&! that means). They looked like players operating in a system they were unsure of. Young wasn't heavy legged. He was just clueless. Same with Darmian.

Cliches like fatigued and fragile just mask the real issues.

you're not wrong in hour observations, sparky.

but it's the fact you've so damming concluded from them that casts your largely as negative on here.

you post largely when we £#%&! up. 5 minutes in and you'll be pointing out serious long-term ramifications. we score, you go quiet.

no character? not on Sunday, no. but what about coming back at Southampton? holding firm against Wolfsburg? these are the same players and within a few days of Sundays damming game, but there's no thread started about that one.

we're a mixed bag. I've said it numerous times, but I think tour confidence is like glass. each performance seems dependent on the last and we're nowhere near good enough to take our foot off the pedal like we did on Sunday.

like I say, I agree with the observations, but you can also find examples to the contrary this season and last. I wouldn't be making such sweeping judgements so early. I think progress is there. it's small and fragile, but there. how we react is all important. if we flop in these next few games (and please don't say we definitely will because you don't know that. we were all saying the same thing last March and look how that turned out) then serious questions need to be asked because our early season good start will be down the pan. if we can amass a good total from the next three, then the arsenal game will look like a mere blip.

Sunday was just the first of a few tests. let's see where we are at the end of them before drawing such conclusions.


the 'we'll smash them brigade' do need a slap though.

Originally Posted by shenwen

They didn't look heavy legged (whatever the £#%&! that means). They looked like players operating in a system they were unsure of. Young wasn't heavy legged. He was just clueless. Same with Darmian.

Cliches like fatigued and fragile just mask the real issues.

You can see the game plan from the first moment. The Arsenal defence got the ball and were able to just pass it out. We didn't get anywhere near them. Rooney/Mata/Mephis just stood off.

Then when our defence got the ball, Sanchez and the rest were all over us pressing to win the ball.

There was a clear tactic from Arsenal to do this, as we cannot handle it when teams get into us. Van Gaal thought he could get away with just passing it around as usual and not bother to defend from the front, expecting Arsenal to probably play similar. He got it completely wrong, and it wasn't tiredness, just bad tactics from Van Gaal.

Schweinsteiger and Martial were the only players playing with intensity, the rest of them had no idea what to do. I'm not a Van Gaal hater, but you've got to blame the manager for it. We are playing way too slowly at the moment from an attacking and defending (all over the field) point of view.

Originally Posted by S/Side.Red

They didn't bottle anything or throw in any towels yesterday. In fact there was a decent spirit about the team for most of the game, but clearly the confidence was drained by our start. United are not above taking the odd @#%&!ting. Nobody is; ask Barca or City recently.

The thread's a state, tbh. Nobody tipping us for the league in the summer, yet arse seeing when we're pushed off the top of the table.

Great post. If we get a few points over the next few games November is a much nicer month of fixtures. Of course it's usually the 'easy' games that trip you up so who knows but it's an easier run on paper. If we finish 2nd or 3rd comfortably in the top 4 then it's progression, go for the title next season. It's all well znd good saying it'd be piss easy to win it this season but we have had a big turnaround of players.

September 20th 1998 arsenal 3 man utd 0 hammered outplayed

team schmeichal , g neville , berg , stam , irwin , butt , keane , blomqvist , beckham , yorke .. Incredibly fragile team that day considering 8 of the 11 went on to play in possibly the biggest club game utd have ever been involved in 9 mths later ..... Most of you should be aware of your clubs history ...instead of posting reams and reams of pointless shite

Originally Posted by puressence

September 20th 1998 arsenal 3 man utd 0 hammered outplayed

team schmeichal , g neville , berg , stam , irwin , butt , keane , blomqvist , beckham , yorke .. Incredibly fragile team that day considering 8 of the 11 went on to play in possibly the biggest club game utd have ever been involved in 9 mths later ..... Most of you should be aware of your clubs history ...instead of posting reams and reams of pointless shite

Pure in coherent argument shocker. yhgr