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Unread 16-01-2015, 08:31 AM
Nani
 
Default Scholes on 3-5-2

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/f...m-9981300.html

One of his better articles since turning pundit. Some good analysis on 3-5-2 etc.

Re Balon D'Or, Someone needs to tell him he can stop playing the anti-spotlight persona nowadays - most people get it
 
Unread 16-01-2015, 09:08 AM
S/Side.Red
 
Default

Bayern beat Roma 7-1 with three at the back. Holland and Chile both murdered Spain with three at the back.

It's typically English to write off a whole system, but there's definitely an issue of how well guys like Shaw and Valencia have adapted to it, though it's still new. Last Sunday Blind took no time to offer greater threat going forward from that role. Familiarity with the position.

But if talk of LvG looking for a traditional RB is true, then presumably this system is temporary.
 
Unread 16-01-2015, 09:19 AM
antonin jablonsky
 
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nani
http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/f...m-9981300.html

One of his better articles since turning pundit. Some good analysis on 3-5-2 etc.

Re Balon D'Or, Someone needs to tell him he can stop playing the anti-spotlight persona nowadays - most people get it
Bit wordy, "It's a shit, negative system that's ruining us as a team" would've done.
 
Unread 16-01-2015, 09:25 AM
Lazlo Panaflex
 
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by S/Side.Red
Bayern beat Roma 7-1 with three at the back. Holland and Chile both murdered Spain with three at the back.

It's typically English to write off a whole system, but there's definitely an issue of how well guys like Shaw and Valencia have adapted to it, though it's still new. Last Sunday Blind took no time to offer greater threat going forward from that role. Familiarity with the position.

But if talk of LvG looking for a traditional RB is true, then presumably this system is temporary.
He makes some decent points, even if he is a rent a gob.

It gives the oppo all day to set up defensively.

I hate the two up front more than 3 at the back though.
 
Unread 16-01-2015, 09:41 AM
S/Side.Red
 
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lazlo Panaflex
He makes some decent points, even if he is a rent a gob.

It gives the oppo all day to set up defensively.

I hate the two up front more than 3 at the back though.
I think very little threat on the break and static strikers does that too.

Again, calling three at the back negative as a principle is just silly. Guardiola and Bielsa, two of the most positive coaches in the world, have both used it. But the composition of their attack is where the difference is. United have played over the last month or so with a slow triangle in attack. If you can't move defences around, you'll struggle to create at times, especially away from home.
 
Unread 16-01-2015, 09:56 AM
dunk
 
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by S/Side.Red
Bayern beat Roma 7-1 with three at the back. Holland and Chile both murdered Spain with three at the back.

It's typically English to write off a whole system, but there's definitely an issue of how well guys like Shaw and Valencia have adapted to it, though it's still new. Last Sunday Blind took no time to offer greater threat going forward from that role. Familiarity with the position.

But if talk of LvG looking for a traditional RB is true, then presumably this system is temporary.
If he's going 3 at the back I think I'd rather it was more 3-4-3 tbh, 1 central striker and 2 wide attackers ish. Not liking the 2 up top and lack of width and the ability to overload in wide areas. Probably far too risky that though
 
Unread 16-01-2015, 10:02 AM
antonin jablonsky
 
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by S/Side.Red
I think very little threat on the break and static strikers does that too.

Again, calling three at the back negative as a principle is just silly. Guardiola and Bielsa, two of the most positive coaches in the world, have both used it. But the composition of their attack is where the difference is. United have played over the last month or so with a slow triangle in attack. If you can't move defences around, you'll struggle to create at times, especially away from home.
True, it is for us though.
 
Unread 16-01-2015, 10:27 AM
ZiggyStardust
 
Default

The problem with saying clubs sides like Bayern can play it very effectively is that they naturally evolved towards being this tactically flexible

It took Bayern a number of years starting with LvG to get to this position where they can switch between 3 and 4 at the back so easily

The problem I have with van Gaal at the moment is he's trying to go from A straight to Z without taking the necessary steps in between
He can still get his philosophy across playing a more conventional system like he did at Bayern while gradually replacing the players he deems not up to the standard he's looking for with more tactically flexible players
Eventually he would get to where Bayern are now but like at Bayern you have to let it evolve naturally which will take years

As has been already been said the biggest issue is probably not the 3 at the back but the 2 conventional centre forwards up top
No top team in world football plays with 2 out and out centre forwards as it puts two much defensive strain on the midfield and defence but mainly because it makes your attack far too predictable
LvG needs to show his supposed big balls and drop 2 of Rooney, van Persie and Falcao and introduce a 1 centre forward system
 
Unread 16-01-2015, 11:02 AM
Ethers
 
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron
there's literally one player in the starting XI who can do a trick to beat a player with some skill.


 
Unread 16-01-2015, 11:14 AM
S/Side.Red
 
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron
Players make systems. We don't have right players for it at the moment, there's no pace, there's not enough intensity to press, there's literally one player in the starting XI who can do a trick to beat a player with some skill. We're too languid & lacking in basics to allow the proper players in the side to make use of their attacking opportunities because the oppo can read us like a book.

Buy some better players.
I'd quite like to see it with Rooney as the spearhead, with Rafa down the right and Herrera starting. You add a lot of energy there.

Definitely raises the issue of the Falcao signing. Great goalscorer but the problems in adding him when LvG seems so committed to van Persie were perhaps foreseeable. Was he even van Gaal's signing, or was it Woodward/Mendes politics at work and LvG just agreed?
We don't know all that's happened, but the decision to leave him out of the squad last week given the other options remains huge.
 
Unread 16-01-2015, 12:05 PM
92ToBury
 
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethers


 
Unread 16-01-2015, 12:35 PM
Mr_Ed
 
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron
Players make systems. We don't have right players for it at the moment, there's no pace, there's not enough intensity to press, there's literally one player in the starting XI who can do a trick to beat a player with some skill. We're too languid & lacking in basics to allow the proper players in the side to make use of their attacking opportunities because the oppo can read us like a book.

Buy some better players.
This
 
Unread 16-01-2015, 03:18 PM
red in cumbria
 
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lazlo Panaflex
He makes some decent points, even if he is a rent a gob.

It gives the oppo all day to set up defensively.

I hate the two up front more than 3 at the back though.
Scholesy being described thus is still mindboggling, tbh
 
Unread 16-01-2015, 04:14 PM
goldfinger II
 
Default

I don't like 3 at the back but Van Gaal has already said that is not his preference either. He chooses this formation because we don't have good enough defenders to play 4-3-3. In fairness, it has worked in that regard. Our defensive record is amazing considering the lack of quality we have there and amount of injuries we've had, so his decision has been somewhat justified.

I agree that the problem is personnel. It's a sorry state of affairs that we don't have one reliable centre-back and have to change the formation to compensate in the first place. Unfortunately, we also don't have players good enough to contribute creatively or from an attacking perspective from the wing-back positions, which is essential given that we have no wingers and are a man light further up the pitch.

I think Shaw might grow into the position, but until we get a proper centre-back or a quality wing-back, we will struggle to create. Although, I still think the midfield should be doing more - hopefully, they will now that players are back.
 
Unread 16-01-2015, 04:36 PM
utd99
 
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron
Players make systems. We don't have right players for it at the moment, there's no pace, there's not enough intensity to press, there's literally one player in the starting XI who can do a trick to beat a player with some skill. We're too languid & lacking in basics to allow the proper players in the side to make use of their attacking opportunities because the oppo can read us like a book.

Buy some better players.
In a nutshell.

Any system can basically be boiled down to how the players perform it. It's become fashionable and intellectual to debate formations ad nauseum, but if Rooney mis controls his first touch, Smalling plays a simple ball out of the back behind his man or Mata misses a sitter from three yards out, it's not because we are playing 3-5-2.
 
Unread 16-01-2015, 04:51 PM
Time For Heroes
 
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by utd99
In a nutshell.

Any system can basically be boiled down to how the players perform it. It's become fashionable and intellectual to debate formations ad nauseum, but if Rooney mis controls his first touch, Smalling plays a simple ball out of the back behind his man or Mata misses a sitter from three yards out, it's not because we are playing 3-5-2.
When has this ever happened? You're living in a dream world pal.
 
Unread 16-01-2015, 06:20 PM
Tiberian
 
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by utd99
In a nutshell.

Any system can basically be boiled down to how the players perform it. It's become fashionable and intellectual to debate formations ad nauseum, but if Rooney mis controls his first touch, Smalling plays a simple ball out of the back behind his man or Mata misses a sitter from three yards out, it's not because we are playing 3-5-2.
True up to a point. The 2008 team was built on a exceptional defensive unit, great attacking variation and an excellent depth of squad. However if that team was asked to play 3-5-2 I doubt either Vidic or Brown would excel in building the play from the back. Both excellent defenders but mediocre ball players at best. Smalling to his credit is showing signs of at least attempting to develop that side of his game but with his technical deficiencies it is unlikely to ever be natural to him.

The issues with the lack of pace in attack were inevitable as soon as the transfer activity was concluded, LVG is exacerbating that problem with his insistence on 3 at the back.
 
Unread 16-01-2015, 06:34 PM
Ethers
 
Default

It's not really 3-5-2 that demands the defenders excel at building play from the back though, it's more about LVG's philosophy. If we switched to 4-4-2 he wouldn't suddenly start telling the defence to get rid at the first opportunity.

In a traditional 3-5-2 you can get away with only having one ball playing CB, in 2008 for example it would have been Rio.
 
Unread 16-01-2015, 06:48 PM
Tiberian
 
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethers
It's not really 3-5-2 that demands the defenders excel at building play from the back though, it's more about LVG's philosophy. If we switched to 4-4-2 he wouldn't suddenly start telling the defence to get rid at the first opportunity.

In a traditional 3-5-2 you can get away with only having one ball playing CB, in 2008 for example it would have been Rio.
Fully agree with the first point. I think one of the reasons Utd have struggled with building the play from the back this season is the composition of the attack. Usually one sitting midfielder, 2 attacking midfielders, and 2 static strikers. Very few short passing options for the defenders, Herrera is an interesting case, lovely player but wants to play too high from what I have seen this season, Utd need more midfielders willing to sit and build the play rather than think like a 10.

Nor sure about your second point(and probably contradicting myself) but times this season Utd have had Blind, Carrick, Rojo at the back and still struggled with playing out.

Lack of balance and chemistry between the attacking options and their link with the midfield still a bigger issue than the back imo.
 
Unread 16-01-2015, 10:33 PM
dinger
 
Default

Another thing with 3 at the back is that teams have found an easy way to shit us up, they know our defenders have been told to try and play it out from the back so they immediately push 3 attackers onto them and because they're nervous about this system more often than not they play a sloppy pass or @#%&! it long.
It happened all game against Stoke, Yeovil and Southampton.
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