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Unread 21-06-2022, 10:57 PM
Drexl
 
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I'm unsure if I was a first responder, and I had to open a door I knew a shooter was behind, that I would actually open the door

I need help to understand tbh
 
Unread 22-06-2022, 02:23 AM
shenwen
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drexl
I'm unsure if I was a first responder, and I had to open a door I knew a shooter was behind, that I would actually open the door

I need help to understand tbh
probably best then not to take a job were your remit is to protect and serve.

I'm sure their training was meant to prepare them for situations exactly like this.
 
Unread 22-06-2022, 07:37 AM
NedKelly
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drexl
I'm unsure if I was a first responder, and I had to open a door I knew a shooter was behind, that I would actually open the door

I need help to understand tbh
If youíre a first responder then you took on that responsibility knowing that kind of scenario is a possibility. Iím not a policeman, I donít think Iíd be legible to be one due to past mistakes, but I wouldnít have been able to stand around outside doing nothing if I knew there were kids getting massacred. Would genuinely rather act as some kind of meat shield in an attempt to save the little ones.
 
Unread 22-06-2022, 08:00 AM
Bunker Buster
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NedKelly
If youíre a first responder then you took on that responsibility knowing that kind of scenario is a possibility. Iím not a policeman, I donít think Iíd be legible to be one due to past mistakes, but I wouldnít have been able to stand around outside doing nothing if I knew there were kids getting massacred. Would genuinely rather act as some kind of meat shield in an attempt to save the little ones.
I've seen men twice your size, athleticism and strength absolutely wilt as that first whistle of bullet velocity flies meters above your head ...

All the training in the world doesn't prepare you for that noise, that question in your mind, that fear to push through....
 
Unread 22-06-2022, 08:17 AM
Sapien
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunker Buster
I've seen men twice your size, athleticism and strength absolutely wilt as that first whistle of bullet velocity flies meters above your head ...

All the training in the world doesn't prepare you for that noise, that question in your mind, that fear to push through....
 
Unread 22-06-2022, 08:22 AM
red red robbo
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunker Buster
I've seen men twice your size, athleticism and strength absolutely wilt as that first whistle of bullet velocity flies meters above your head ...

All the training in the world doesn't prepare you for that noise, that question in your mind, that fear to push through....
Sorry, can't help thinking of...



Sure you're right though, none of can know how we'll react if put in that situation. My response to being under a sustained hail of paintballs suggests that it would not be well in my case
 
Unread 22-06-2022, 08:40 AM
NedKelly
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunker Buster
I've seen men twice your size, athleticism and strength absolutely wilt as that first whistle of bullet velocity flies meters above your head ...

All the training in the world doesn't prepare you for that noise, that question in your mind, that fear to push through....
Youíre telling me mate. Still remember the first time I saw a comrade take a neck shot in airsoft.

Slight offence taken at men twice my size - makes me feel like I come across as exceptionally diminutive.
 
Unread 22-06-2022, 09:24 AM
red red robbo
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by red red robbo
Sorry, can't help thinking of...



Sure you're right though, none of us can know how we'll react if put in that situation. My response to being under a sustained hail of paintballs suggests that it would not be well in my case
 
Unread 22-06-2022, 12:32 PM
Sharders
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sapien
Brilliant
 
Unread 22-06-2022, 01:11 PM
Fat Al
 
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Of course, i will defer to the actual combat veterans on here but surely we are talking about 2 different situations here?

A soldier going into combat for the first time, facing an enemy, or multiple enemies who are likely to be be well trained, well armed & highly motivated. In some cases, willing to die rather than surrender. Even if the enemy isn't experienced, the soldier won't know that when the enemy fire starts coming in. In that situation, I'm pretty sure I'd freeze, try to find somewhere to hide or just run away.

Whereas in Uvalde, you have numerous armed Police, in body armour outside a classroom full of little kids being shot by a lone gunman. I like to think that I'd be straight in the door to stop that happening. Even if the officer in charge said to wait.
 
Unread 22-06-2022, 01:37 PM
tatty
 
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I find it difficult to believe that these scenarios arenít drilled relentlessly by the armed response units which is why I think they were stopped from acting by an individual who is probably shitting themselves now.

Itís hardly an unforeseen event.
 
Unread 22-06-2022, 02:19 PM
Bunker Buster
 
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I will wait for the full report, but this may seem grim as f***, but if they were fully confirmed as the class dead, the suspect was contained in the class room, isnt getting the other children in the remaining classes to safety the priority ?

Depends on the timings etc....
 
Unread 22-06-2022, 02:29 PM
armchair
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunker Buster
I will wait for the full report, but this may seem grim as f***, but if they were fully confirmed as the class dead, the suspect was contained in the class room, isnt getting the other children in the remaining classes to safety the priority ?

Depends on the timings etc....
Quote:
A screen grab from a security camera inside Robb Elementary School in Uvalde, Texas is raising questions about the police response to the shooting spree.

The image, obtained by the Austin American statesman, shows officers in the hallway of the school with rifles and a shield at 11:52 a.m., 19 minutes after the gunman entered the school.
more details
https://www.texastribune.org/2022/06...ponse-records/


Quote:
The mayor also accused McCraw of presenting a biased picture of the shooting by failing to acknowledge that 14 DPS officers were in the school hallway while the gunman was barricaded in a classroom for more than an hour.
https://eu.statesman.com/story/news/...on/7696222001/
 
Unread 22-06-2022, 02:43 PM
Sharders
 
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There shouldn't be a debate here at all.

Fact is the response to this was completely inadequate and cowardly. It could have relatively easily been contained if the so-called men on the ground actioned it.

Someone mentioned the SAS above. If the SAS or even a moderately trained military or civvie armed unit (in the UK) would have dealt with this properly; i.e. a fast breach after a rapid close recce, it would have been over very quickly, assuming you have the assets in place.

This was down to cowardice.

The police there just stood by. Simple as that.

No debate.
 
Unread 22-06-2022, 02:46 PM
red red robbo
 
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There is one possible set of circumstances that would excuse the police's behaviour, and that is if they knew for certain that everyone inside the class room with the gunman was already dead. Then containing the situation would have been the correct thing to do.

I cannot imagine, however, any way that they could know that for sure.

And even if that was the case, they should have been evacuating the rest of the school, which I believe they didn't do.
 
Unread 22-06-2022, 02:53 PM
Bunker Buster
 
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Thanks for the link....

A total breakdown in command structure, happens all the time, seems like he was firing at officers from the off and they were also evacuating other kids, containing the situation and waiting for directions / firepower ..

One of the first in the scene had a kid in the room

All this talk of SAS and I'd just burst straight in, it just doesn't happen like that irl, this isn't a movie ...

I'm not saying they didn't mess up or they couldn't have done more .....

Just seems like some need someone to blame right now, not the kid who walked straight into a classroom and took 4 full mags to the occupants...

What a mess
 
Unread 22-06-2022, 02:55 PM
Sharders
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by red red robbo
There is one possible set of circumstances that would excuse the police's behaviour, and that is if they knew for certain that everyone inside the class room with the gunman was already dead. Then containing the situation would have been the correct thing to do.

I cannot imagine, however, any way that they could know that for sure.

And even if that was the case, they should have been evacuating the rest of the school, which I believe they didn't do.
Imagine that logic in any war or hostage situation: "They're all dead, sod it".

The approach for this should have been a fast recce, storm it aggressively, 2 to chest, 1 to head. The likelihood of getting shot by someone on the back foot with no weapon handling skills whatsoever is tiny. Problem is the so-called police had exactly the same combat experience, and by the sounds of it zero intelligence and next to no courage.
 
Unread 22-06-2022, 02:59 PM
Bunker Buster
 
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharders
Imagine that logic in any war or hostage situation: "They're all dead, sod it".

The approach for this should have been a fast recce, storm it aggressively, 2 to chest, 1 to head. The likelihood of getting shot by someone on the back foot with no weapon handling skills whatsoever is tiny. Problem is the so-called police had exactly the same combat experience, and by the sounds of it zero intelligence and next to no courage.
That's a legitimate containment tactic, unfortunately "they're all dead" this time involved kids.....

As for the rest, this isn't Rambo 5 son...

The shooter wasn't on the back foot in anyway, he most probably had most entry points absolutely locked down and was totally aware of his surroundings.... Breaching single doors could potentially be a death wish....

One of them was a kids dad FFS....
 
Unread 22-06-2022, 03:01 PM
red red robbo
 
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharders
Imagine that logic in any war or hostage situation: "They're all dead, sod it".

The approach for this should have been a fast recce, storm it aggressively, 2 to chest, 1 to head. The likelihood of getting shot by someone on the back foot with no weapon handling skills whatsoever is tiny. Problem is the so-called police had exactly the same combat experience, and by the sounds of it zero intelligence and next to no courage.
Only excusable if they were trying to limit any further casualties. I'm not sure you should be storming in guns blazing if either side of the class room there are more kids in them. Stud walling isn't going to make much impact on a load of rounds from assault rifles.

Just trying to explore what they might have been thinking and understand why they took no action. It could just be as it appears, that they were a bunch of shit the beds.
 
Unread 22-06-2022, 03:04 PM
Sharders
 
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunker Buster
That's a legitimate containment tactic, unfortunately "they're all dead" this time involved kids.....

As for the rest, this isn't Rambo 5 son...

The shooter wasn't on the back foot in anyway, he most probably had most entry points absolutely locked down and was totally aware of his surroundings.... Breaching single doors could potentially be a death wish....

One of them was a kids dad FFS....
Can I shock you. I'm ex-military. If you think a "man" who enters a primary school with the intent of murdering children is "totally aware of his surroundings", then good luck to you, son.

I know exactly how it works. I never said breaching single doors, either.
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