given a run in the tevez has 12 league goals and 5 assists this season for city.

Originally Posted by Tiberian

Myth, the central defence of Bruce and Pallister was not good enough at that level, perfectly suited to dealing with the long ball game in England but always struggled against quality in Europe.

The impact of the foreigner rule is always exaggerated as well, Utd usually had at least 8/9 of the strongest team out, for example the team in 0-4 humiliation at Barca was;

Walsh
Parker
Bruce
Pallister
Irwin
Kanchelskis
Keane
Ince
Butt
Giggs
Hughes.

2 big players in Schmeichel and Cantona missing, but that is still a strong side but they never appeared close to being in the same class as Barca, and it is hardly as if they excelled against the average Gothenberg and Galatasary.

The Utd side of that time were tactically naive and struggled to alter their style of play and maintain possession in Europe, superb domestic side but there is nmo evidence to suggest they were capable of winning the EC even without the foreigner rule.

I disagree there tbh.

First of all, people often skate over Gary Walsh being in net as if it was no big deal. Make no mistake about it, having to replace the world's best goalkeeper with a very, very poor replacement, with hardly any runs of games under his belt, in the Nou Camp was a huge blow. Imagine the confidence it knocked out of the defence. Playing with a completely, utterly shit goalkeeper behind you against their strike force - you'd be nervy as £#%&!. Bruce and Pally often used to mention how having Schmeichel behind them filled them with confidence, and that confidence spread throughout the team, from the back. With one eye behind you on a liability like Walsh, you can't have the confidence in attack.

Look at 1998/99 - were either Yorke or Cole as good as Romario? No, but that team had the confidence to stream forward.

Moving forward, Nicky Butt again had very little experience, and absolutely none of a match even approaching that size. And that's in the heartbeat of the team.

Also, Cantona being out is frequently understated. So in all three key areas, the team was messed up, inexperience replaced experience, nervousness replaced confidence.

For me that team lacked one big thing, which was strength in depth. There were no real subs to bring on. I've still never seen such an effective attacking side, they were absolutely devastating, but that attacking force was almost nullified if just one or two players were missing. So I still believe the foreigner rule did £#%&! things up, because the squad wasn't strong enough as a whole, and I think that the first eleven from that year you can roll off your tongue would have done a lot better without it.

Originally Posted by MJ Ramone

Yeah, well maybe they would.
I'm also sure there'd have been a smug, contrary, psuedo intellectual poster who constantly attempted to belittle posters who didn't agree with him.

as i said, I'm not interested in whether you are "proved wrong" in the future, I'm only interested in pointing out that you are already wrong now. which again is why I pulled you up on it. as for your personal opinion? that's a separate matter entirely, of course. but if I find it ridiculous I will say so if I can be bothered. and believe me, that is nowhere near as often as it could be bearing in mind some of the shite that gets posted repeatedly on here.

Originally Posted by Whalefish

It's really not that hard to understand tbh. There's loads of these boring stats out there, all sorts.

Here's some others involving a few players that actually play for Utd as opposed to a Div:

When Berbatov and Rooney start together:
P11 W9 D1 L1
When only Berbatov starts:
P1 W1 D0 L0
When only Rooney starts:
P9 W4 D1 L4

I don't care about our number 7 btw. He's a @#%&!. All the rest are shit. Including he who looks like he's short of the full deck (that's Obertan btw).

I dream of the day when folk support players as opposed to teams. It'd be so much more peaceful.

£#%&!in' A what's the point in supporting the team, without supporting the players you may ask.


But no, as long as people can choose a scapegoat for a perceived lack of success everyone's happy on the nameless forum. Always amusing how the amount of people who rage about berbatov aren't exactly regulars at OT, and other than the TV have absolutely no concept of an individuals contribution on the pitch. And as whaleys stats confirm, you can use stats to prove just about anything.


Why people expected him to bang the goals in in the first place is beyond me as he's not a 'true' striker. Is it because fergie paid £30m? if that's the case, the blame should lay elsewhere

Originally Posted by Zorg

I disagree there tbh.

First of all, people often skate over Gary Walsh being in net as if it was no big deal. Make no mistake about it, having to replace the world's best goalkeeper with a very, very poor replacement, with hardly any runs of games under his belt, in the Nou Camp was a huge blow. Imagine the confidence it knocked out of the defence. Playing with a completely, utterly shit goalkeeper behind you against their strike force - you'd be nervy as £#%&!. Bruce and Pally often used to mention how having Schmeichel behind them filled them with confidence, and that confidence spread throughout the team, from the back. With one eye behind you on a liability like Walsh, you can't have the confidence in attack.

Look at 1998/99 - were either Yorke or Cole as good as Romario? No, but that team had the confidence to stream forward.

Moving forward, Nicky Butt again had very little experience, and absolutely none of a match even approaching that size. And that's in the heartbeat of the team.

Also, Cantona being out is frequently understated. So in all three key areas, the team was messed up, inexperience replaced experience, nervousness replaced confidence.

For me that team lacked one big thing, which was strength in depth. There were no real subs to bring on. I've still never seen such an effective attacking side, they were absolutely devastating, but that attacking force was almost nullified if just one or two players were missing. So I still believe the foreigner rule did £#%&! things up, because the squad wasn't strong enough as a whole, and I think that the first eleven from that year you can roll off your tongue would have done a lot better without it.

The points on Schmeichel and Cantona are fair enough, but we had games with both starting and perhaps missing 2 out of Kanchelskis/Irwin/Giggs/Hughes. How often did the nominal strongest 11 actually play in the 93/94 season, wasn't it only 12 times? They were too often overawed in Europe, the squad was weak, especially compared to the Utd of the last 3 years, who do not really have a strongest 11 that many would agree on. Struggling badly against Galatasary in 2 successive seasons, beaten easily by Gothenberg, struggled against Honved at times.

They were just not ready to succeed in Europe, had to adapt their approach. Thinking that the style of play that worked in England would dominate Europe when it was based upon getting the ball back very quickly after losing it was always going to be a problem. That team always looked clueless when the Euro teams kept possession for long periods, they would chase them expecting their technique to fail like it would against Oldham, Ipswich and co, but when it did not happen they were out of position and vulnerable to counter attacks.

Arsenal had the same problem when they first went inot Europe under Wenger, outstanding domestic side, but much like Utd of the 94 era it was based around pace, power and quick counter attacks after winning the ball back quickly, they struggled very badly, could not get out of the group stages in the first few years, when they adapted to being a more possession based side like the Utd from 96 onwards with Scholes and Beckham they had more success.

great thread. nothing like a thread on a player that doesnt play for us anymore and what's more plays for the divs.

vibrant stuff.

Originally Posted by Part 36 Offer

great thread. nothing like a thread on a player that doesnt play for us anymore and what's more plays for the divs.

vibrant stuff.

And what's more he was only on loan to us.

People are talking like a legend was sold against his will.