Ajax got knocked out

Originally Posted by Serenity Now

Just to be clear, he can't play. You cannot be registered for two clubs competing in the same UEFA competition in the same season. And only one player per season can be registered who has previously played in any other UEFA club competition (with the exceptions of the Super Cup and the Intertoto Cup) for any other team.

What about Mascherano?

Originally Posted by Rhodzy

What about Mascherano?

What does Mascherano have to do with anything? Were West Ham competing in the Champions League?

Originally Posted by Serenity Now

What does Mascherano have to do with anything? Were West Ham competing in the Champions League?

In the UEFA cup

Originally Posted by Rhodzy

In the UEFA cup

Did you see the bit I wrote about one player being allowed to be registered who has previously played for another club in another UEFA competition?

Originally Posted by Serenity Now

Did you see the bit I wrote about one player being allowed to be registered who has previously played for another club in another UEFA competition?

I read it wrong, sorry

Originally Posted by The Return of JC

Come on, you know I don't normally front the Doom Squad. I just feel our performances, particularly away from home, are riddled with anxiety. It's an exception when we play with swagger and freedom.

Fergie has become obsessed with thinking in European terms and forgets what our strengths are. We are always too 'coy' in Europe. Lille at home was a good example - just play your natural game and kill this lot off. WE'RE BETTER THEY ARE! But no, we sit back, rely on the defence (which has never, in Fergie's whole tenure,been as good as the attack) and suddenly Lille get encouraged and start to believe they can steal a goal.

They very nearly did. In the end the Larsson goal ended their hopes, but my God we made it hard for ourselves.

After the Benfica game at home we should've learned to never sit back again. We're not very good at it. When we did, again, their tails went up and they scored. As soon as they did we completely changed our style and just went for them. After that it was one way traffic but why did it need the warning shot of a goal?

I'm not saying we should be totally attacking because that's naive. But we need to play at a high tempo with the emphasis on attack rather than sitting back and supposedly picking and selecting moments to strike like a cute little battle.
Quick tempo, one touch passing, aggressive and tenacious while maintaining our discipline and concentration levels. This is the way to go about it.
We do it in the big Premiership games too. We try to out Chelsea Chelsea!

It's our attitude in Europe that holds us back, not our personnel.

Most of what you're saying is fair enough. There was a distinct lift in performance and attitude after we went behind against benfica for instance. But do you seriously believe that was for any other reason than necessity being the mother of invention? Our tactics certainly never changed, and I defy anyone to say they did.

This version of our Euro failings always seems to ignore both the human nature of the players we have, the pressure of playing for such a club as Manchester United in Europe and all that that entails, and the ability and performance of the players on the opposition.

We all know and have learned to accept that every tin pot team and its fans across England can be expected to give its best performance of the season when United are in front of them. We make allowances for this. We do not say we drew at Portsmouth because Ferguson spread the fear.

Yet when we lose the lead and then the match at Porto or Depor it's because Fergie was scared. When Roma play out of their skins from the first whistle it's not because they played their cup final. No, it's because all our players were better than theirs but somehow Fergie made them lose. Did he make Scholes lose his marbles as well? Or was Scholes just off the pace, hustled out of his own personal comfort zone?

In Leverkusen dd Fergie mention anything about conceding on the stroke of half-time in his team talk? In Dortmund did he tell Beckham and Butt to miss? Did he tell Stam and Cole to miss in madrid when it was just as easy to score in 2000? Or RvN and Beckham in 2003?

There's far more than tactics going on with United in Europe is all I'm saying. If we were ever that good at it we'd have won more than just 3 tournements in 50 years, Munich notwithstanding, of course.

Originally Posted by borsuk

we don't need another striker. we'll be a different team in the cl this year and will succeed in style.

With Ole retiring, and Saha as stable as a house of cards, I just can't see Rooney & Tevez being enough for a 55+ game season.

Originally Posted by Tumescent Throb

Most of what you're saying is fair enough. There was a distinct lift in performance and attitude after we went behind against benfica for instance. But do you seriously believe that was for any other reason than necessity being the mother of invention? Our tactics certainly never changed, and I defy anyone to say they did.

This version of our Euro failings always seems to ignore both the human nature of the players we have, the pressure of playing for such a club as Manchester United in Europe and all that that entails, and the ability and performance of the players on the opposition.

We all know and have learned to accept that every tin pot team and its fans across England can be expected to give its best performance of the season when United are in front of them. We make allowances for this. We do not say we drew at Portsmouth because Ferguson spread the fear.

Yet when we lose the lead and then the match at Porto or Depor it's because Fergie was scared. When Roma play out of their skins from the first whistle it's not because they played their cup final. No, it's because all our players were better than theirs but somehow Fergie made them lose. Did he make Scholes lose his marbles as well? Or was Scholes just off the pace, hustled out of his own personal comfort zone?

In Leverkusen dd Fergie mention anything about conceding on the stroke of half-time in his team talk? In Dortmund did he tell Beckham and Butt to miss? Did he tell Stam and Cole to miss in madrid when it was just as easy to score in 2000? Or RvN and Beckham in 2003?

There's far more than tactics going on with United in Europe is all I'm saying. If we were ever that good at it we'd have won more than just 3 tournements in 50 years, Munich notwithstanding, of course.

It's not so much tactics, but more attitude and approach. We're tentative, negative and we sit back. I think the opposition expects a hard time and we don't always give it to them and we don't play to our strengths. When the opposition is allowed time and space and allowed to go at us then they become encouraged.

Tactics my not have changed against Benfica, but the attitude and approach certainly did and it shouldn't take a goal that could've knocked us out to make us do that.

You can cite examples of us missing chances if you like, but you could just as easily find examples of opposition misses from 99 that would've knocked us out. I'm talking more generally about a tentative set up and approach that creates anxiety within the side because it's not playing it's natural game.

It is tactical, Charlton even came out and said after we were knocked out by Madrid in 03 that we needed to be more defensive (), when most of our players apart from Ruud had in fact bottled it in Madrid.

Bizarrely some people managed to blame Quieroz for our negative football the following season (Keane & Neville in midfield with Scholes, Giggs looking lost) on Quieroz, when he wasn't even at the club! That's where it started.

And as for Huntelaar, like I said in the other thread, he's not the type we want.

Originally Posted by The Return of JC

It's not so much tactics, but more attitude and approach. We're tentative, negative and we sit back. I think the opposition expects a hard time and we don't always give it to them and we don't play to our strengths. When the opposition is allowed time and space and allowed to go at us then they become encouraged.

Tactics my not have changed against Benfica, but the attitude and approach certainly did and it shouldn't take a goal that could've knocked us out to make us do that.

You can cite examples of us missing chances if you like, but you could just as easily find examples of opposition misses from 99 that would've knocked us out. I'm talking more generally about a tentative set up and approach that creates anxiety within the side because it's not playing it's natural game.

Again, fair enough. But going back to the Benfica game Neville said after that their goal gave the players the rocket up their arse and sometimes they're better when they have no choice but to go for it. From my point of view the one thing that always impresses me above all is Ferguson's insistance that the players go out there and express themselves. This to me does not come across as the soundbite of a manager who wants his teams to play negative football.

Originally Posted by Darth Vidic

It is tactical, Charlton even came out and said after we were knocked out by Madrid in 03 that we needed to be more defensive (), when most of our players apart from Ruud had in fact bottled it in Madrid.

Bizarrely some people managed to blame Quieroz for our negative football the following season (Keane & Neville in midfield with Scholes, Giggs looking lost) on Quieroz, when he wasn't even at the club! That's where it started.

And as for Huntelaar, like I said in the other thread, he's not the type we want.

In Madrid in 2000 we were lucky not to concede, but we should have scored at least once. In 2003 we could easily have taken the lead, but as soon as Figo scored the players - all of them as far as I could tell - panicked. Then Scholes £#%&!ed up and Barthez let the side down. I don't see any tactical failings there at all.

In the return legs we got ripped open far too easily: In 2000 we failed to ring their box from our own corners and got stung badly; that was a tactical victory for Del Bosque in my eyes. In 2003 we did much better, but our goalkeeper seriously let us down, not to say he £#%&!ed us over - not for the first time either (Carrol did no better in the Milan game, and Howard also the year before.)

We weren't negative in any of those 4 games against Madrid. We were as good as them, but we just did not produce the performance level required in any of the 4 games.

I believe we were outplayed by Bayern in 2001 because we had stood still - as well as the fact that, lamentably, they wanted it more than us. Against Leverkusen we had the whole metatarsol sagas of Beckham and Neville, plus Keane missing the 1st leg. And in 2005-06 we had Rooney and Ronaldo on a steep learning curve that neither of them were up to.

Last season we did much better; the players got some good results away from home, and we played some superb football, especially at OT. This season that should do us the world of good.

In Madrid in 2000 we were lucky not to concede, but we should have scored at least once. In 2003 we could easily have taken the lead, but as soon as Figo scored the players - all of them as far as I could tell - panicked. Then Scholes £#%&!ed up and Barthez let the side down. I don't see any tactical failings there at all.

You didn't read what I said

It is tactical, Charlton even came out and said after we were knocked out by Madrid in 03 that we needed to be more defensive (), when most of our players apart from Ruud had in fact bottled it in Madrid.

Bizarrely some people managed to blame Quieroz for our negative football the following season (Keane & Neville in midfield with Scholes, Giggs looking lost) on Quieroz, when he wasn't even at the club! That's where it started.

And as for Huntelaar, like I said in the other thread, he's not the type we want.

Originally Posted by Darth Vidic

You didn't read what I said

Sorry

Not sure what Bobby Charlton was getting at to be fair. maybe he meant we should've had a better goalkeeper, or that we shouldn't have allowed them to get to Barthez so easily?

Originally Posted by Tumescent Throb

Last season we did much better; the players got some good results away from home, and we played some superb football, especially at OT. This season that should do us the world of good.

We dominated the game against Celtic, but lost.

We were shit against Benfica and were lucky to win 1-0.

We pissed about against Copenhagen and got beaten when we could have wrapped up the group.

We were £#%&!ing awful against Lille, but were bailed out by scoring an open goal. A clever goal, but still an open goal.

We looked scared against Roma and were pleased to leave just a goal down.

We got absolutely battered in Milan.

Yep, much better. Really encouraging.

If you don't think what this current team did last season was encouraging then that really is your problem. End of story really.

Originally Posted by Tumescent Throb

If you don't think what this current team did last season was encouraging then that really is your problem. End of story really.

A great performance against Roma at home and a brilliant fight back against Milan at home were both absolutely brilliant. That's it though. The away performances were £#%&!ing dire as usual. If you can't see that then that really is your problem.

Originally Posted by TreeFiddy

A great performance against Roma at home and a brilliant fight back against Milan at home were both absolutely brilliant. That's it though. The away performances were £#%&!ing dire as usual. If you can't see that then that really is your problem.

Well personally I would not put the 3-2 at home to Milan down as a brilliant performance. But it was a brilliant match. I don't want to confuse you too much, but we've been involved in one or two others in Europe in recent times, some of which we haven't actually won despite playing some excellent football.

As for your assessment of our away performances, I am seriously beginning to pity you in some small way; I can't see how you can take any enjoyment whatsoever out of United unless they are bang on song. You want us to steamroller everybody everywhere we go. You want us to play how we normally play (by which I suppose you mean putting 4 past Bolton or suchlike.) You want us to make them forget we are their Cup final. Hate to break this to you, but it ain't gonna happen too often. Maybe you could do worse than to familiarise yourself a bit better with United's European history. Read up on the matches of the last 50 years. See if you can see some kind of a pattern.

Originally Posted by Tumescent Throb

As for your assessment of our away performances, I am seriously beginning to pity you in some small way; I can't see how you can take any enjoyment whatsoever out of United unless they are bang on song. You want us to steamroller everybody everywhere we go. You want us to play how we normally play (by which I suppose you mean putting 4 past Bolton or suchlike.) You want us to make them forget we are their Cup final. Hate to break this to you, but it ain't gonna happen too often. Maybe you could do worse than to familiarise yourself a bit better with United's European history. Read up on the matches of the last 50 years. See if you can see some kind of a pattern.

Thanks for the condescending tone of your response.

Why do you get the impression that I want us "to steamroller everybody everywhere we go"? I'm simply saying that our performances away from home in Europe have been diabolical and we've approached the games negatively. I get enjoyment out of United playing good football and winning. If both things happen then I'm overjoyed. If this makes you pity me then you must also pity most of the forum since this view of recent away performances is shared by the majority of people on here.

About it being other team's cup final, I'm not so sure. Real Madrid, Barcelona, Milan, Inter, Chelsea and Liverpool all face similar circumstances. I don't think Roma and Milan treated the games against us as their 'cup final' either.

As for the European pattern, I hope it's not that we win it every thirty one years.

Originally Posted by TreeFiddy

Thanks for the condescending tone of your response.

Why do you get the impression that I want us "to steamroller everybody everywhere we go"? I'm simply saying that our performances away from home in Europe have been diabolical and we've approached the games negatively. I get enjoyment out of United playing good football and winning. If both things happen then I'm overjoyed. If this makes you pity me then you must also pity most of the forum since this view of recent away performances is shared by the majority of people on here.

About it being other team's cup final, I'm not so sure. Real Madrid, Barcelona, Milan, Inter, Chelsea and Liverpool all face similar circumstances. I don't think Roma and Milan treated the games against us as their 'cup final' either.

As for the European pattern, I hope it's not that we win it every thirty one years.

I think Roma definately treated the home leg as their cup final. Of course Milan never, but we gave them a brilliant game with our defence obliterated in the 1st leg, and we capitulated in the 2nd leg. This wasn't because we were negative. It was because we were £#%&!ed.

As for PSV vs Liverpool? Both legs were a £#%&!ing joke by all accounts. Absolutely no comparison with the way Lille set about United for example. Look at the vermin in Barcelona; the home side were that comfy they dropped off to sleep and in the end the vermin went through. That would never happen with a big team up against United. Never. We have to work for every scrap we get. Even Juve away in 99 cost us two of our best players for prime example.

Anyway, clearly you do not agree, but last season I took pleasure from plenty of our Euro aways. The goal we scored in Rome with 10 men was sensational. And Rooney's finish showed that he had learned from the previous game where he missed an exact replica chance at home to Lille when he volleyed first time - chesting back inside the defender he would've slotted us in front and the whole Lille 2nd leg would've been different.

And Lille away had it's moments too, winding up the home side. As did Benfica away when we finally began to play, Rooney began to sus his out to in role, and we scored a brilliant goal, just as we did in Rome. Clutching at straws a bit now, but Fletcher might well have pulled us back to 2-1 in Milan - we'd still have run out of gas to be truthful. All these things, together with the way we passed the ball in Glasgow, and the unbelievable missed sitters from Rooney and O'Shea in Copenhagen that should have been goals give me hope. They were all encouraging signs for the coming season and beyond.

Sorry

I'm saying that the negative tactics problem started the season after we were knocked out by Madrid. So analysing the madrid games and the ones before them is irrelevant.

Not sure what Bobby Charlton was getting at to be fair. maybe he meant we should've had a better goalkeeper, or that we shouldn't have allowed them to get to Barthez so easily?

I haven't quoted him exactly, but basically he said we would have to be more negative, nothing about getting a better keeper.

And we became more negative and its got us what it deserves - nothing.

Play to our strengths.

So is this what most on here are talking about then? Only I always thought it was a far longer spell they were on about

Teaching Ronaldo and Rooney about the pleasures and pitfalls of the CL has taken a while, but last season showed they are finally sussing it, to me at least

Hopefully the new signings will complete the picture, if they ever all get to play together!