Whisper it...

What is it with the modern age and the demand for instant and constant success? Maybe technology's to blame? Could be the over analysis of the beautiful game and headline after headline. I don't have the answer.

What I do have, though, are some facts from our club's history:

Sir Matt Busby. Had never managed a proper club before be took over United. Won his first league title in his 5th season in charge. It's not really fair to to take into consideration how long it took for him to win the European Cup due to Munich (and the fact the competition only started 10 years after he became our manager). But Sir Matt won 5 league titles and 1 European Cup in his 24 years* at the helm (*who knows what would have happened had it not been for that tragic loss; he won old big ears 9 seasons after it, God rest his and their souls). 

Sir Alex Ferguson. Won his first league title in his 7th season in charge, and his first CL in  his 12th season with us. Won 13 league titles and 2 Champions Leagues in 25 years as the boss.

Ole Gunnar Solksjaer. Has had 2 and a half seasons in charge. Assembled one of the best squads we've ever had**, broken the record for the longest unbeaten away record in the top flight of English football history and has already taken us to one final in Europe.

And unlike Busby and Fergie he was already a club legend as a player. 

And some of you want him sacked already? After 2 and a half years?? I mean seriously, what the absolute £#%&!. Learn something from history, our history, and give the man a break.

^^^^

That's all very well Barry but it doesn't change the fact he looks way out of his depth.

That isn't his fault by the way, but nevertheless how long do we allow sentimentality to override football reality?

I'd give him the opportunity to sign a top level cdm in the winter window and then see how we are at the end of the season.

Originally Posted by BarryX

What is it with the modern age and the demand for instant and constant success? Maybe technology's to blame? Could be the over analysis of the beautiful game and headline after headline. I don't have the answer.

What I do have, though, are some facts from our club's history:

Sir Matt Busby. Had never managed a proper club before be took over United. Won his first league title in his 5th season in charge. It's not really fair to to take into consideration how long it took for him to win the European Cup due to Munich (and the fact the competition only started 10 years after he became our manager). But Sir Matt won 5 league titles and 1 European Cup in his 24 years* at the helm (*who knows what would have happened had it not been for that tragic loss; he won old big ears 9 seasons after it, God rest his and their souls). 

Sir Alex Ferguson. Won his first league title in his 7th season in charge, and his first CL in  his 12th season with us. Won 13 league titles and 2 Champions Leagues in 25 years as the boss.

Ole Gunnar Solksjaer. Has had 2 and a half seasons in charge. Assembled one of the best squads we've ever had**, broken the record for the longest unbeaten away record in the top flight of English football history and has already taken us to one final in Europe.

And unlike Busby and Fergie he was already a club legend as a player. 

And some of you want him sacked already? After 2 and a half years?? I mean seriously, what the absolute £#%&!. Learn something from history, our history, and give the man a break.

£#%&! me Barry, seriously.

I'm fairly sure a few of our players will be quite impatient for success, and won't be over the moon at the prospect of hoping the manager learns how to manage at the top level over the next few years.

it's not a one-off and ole is not fergie/busby and never will be. soz. fergie lost to some dire shite in europe as well, but there's really no excuse for tonight. we will struggle to finish top two in the league or the cl group. we needed two dms and trippier. we still need two dms and trippier. that isn't ole's fault, but everything else is. it's not on. don't do this to yourselves.

Originally Posted by tatty

^^^^

That's all very well Barry but it doesn't change the fact he looks way out of his depth.

That isn't his fault by the way, but nevertheless how long do we allow sentimentality to override football reality?

I'd give him the opportunity to sign a top level cdm in the winter window and then see how we are at the end of the season.

Still finding his way? He finished number 2 in the toughest league in the world in jusf his second fill season, and was a shite goalkeeping performance away from a European trophy. Way out of his depth? I don't think so. Sure he needs to do a better job in the CL, but take a look at those stats again and remind me how long it took Ferguson.

Originally Posted by atticusgrinch

£#%&! me Barry, seriously.

I'm fairly sure a few of our players will be quite impatient for success, and won't be over the moon at the prospect of hoping the manager learns how to manage at the top level over the next few years.

Didn't seem to put off the most demanding of players from resigning for us, though, did it? Can't see any of the youngsters and English contingent, plus Bruno, Ronnie and Varane, suddenly wanting to leave us if we don't win anything this season. At the end of next season, maybe, but not after just one season of the signings he's just made joining and settling in.

Originally Posted by BarryX

Still finding his way? He finished number 2 in the toughest league in the world in jusf his second fill season, and was a shite goalkeeping performance away from a European trophy. Way out of his depth? I don't think so. Sure he needs to do a better job in the CL, but take a look at those stats again and remind me how long it took Ferguson.

Ferguson had a solid record in Scotland and was a top manager before he came to us.

Do you really believe Ole is good enough for United? Honestly?

Hypothetically, if Chelsea or City needed a new boss, and had their pick of any manager in the world, i'm pretty sure Ole wouldn't even be in their top 20 choices.

In fact, if Ole wasn't who he was he'd never had got a look in with United.

The Glazer's knew he was a cheap, bomb-proof option that would put fans in a bind because they wouldn't want to turn on a club legend.

He isn't good enough for a top European side and I don't see him becoming good enough...and his next job in football will show that.

Originally Posted by jem

it's not a one-off and ole is not fergie/busby and never will be. soz. fergie lost to some dire shite in europe as well, but there's really no excuse for tonight. we will struggle to finish top two in the league or the cl group. we needed two dms and trippier. we still need two dms and trippier. that isn't ole's fault, but everything else is. it's not on. don't do this to yourselves.

How can you possibly know he's not going to follow in their footsteps and bring us some serious glory in the coming years? If there's one thing we've learnt from history is that our most successful managers are given plenty of time to get it right.

Originally Posted by tatty

Ferguson had a solid record in Scotland and was a top manager before he came to us.

Do you really believe Ole is good enough for United? Honestly?

Busby hadn't managed anyone before he took over, though. Neither did Zidane, in the modern era, before he went on to win more Champion's Leagues than any other manager before or after.

I absolutely do believe Ole is good enough for the job, in a large part because I'm sure Fergie supported his appointment. His away record, our position last year and his commitment to playing exciting football all add to my belief that he's the right man for the job (at least for another 14 months, if not more).

On and Ole in.

Originally Posted by BarryX

How can you possibly know he's not going to follow in their footsteps and bring us some serious glory in the coming years? If there's one thing we've learnt from history is that our most successful managers are given plenty of time to get it right.



Busby hadn't managed anyone before he took over, though. Neither did Zidane, in the modern era, before he went on to win more Champion's Leagues than any other manager before or after.

I absolutely do believe Ole is good enough for the job, in a large part because I'm sure Fergie supported his appointment. His away record, our position last year and his commitment to playing exciting football all add to my belief that he's the right man for the job (at least for another 14 months, if not more).

On and Ole in.

if there's one thing we've learned from history, it's not that managers just need time to turn into busby or fergie. I'd give ole longer, but don't kid yourself.

if there's another thing we've learned, it's that fergie's support doesn't stop a manager from moyesing it up.

Originally Posted by BarryX

Busby hadn't managed anyone before he took over, though. Neither did Zidane, in the modern era, before he went on to win more Champion's Leagues than any other manager before or after.

I absolutely do believe Ole is good enough for the job, in a large part because I'm sure Fergie supported his appointment. His away record, our position last year and his commitment to playing exciting football all add to my belief that he's the right man for the job (at least for another 14 months, if not more).

On and Ole in.

Busby took over United over 75 years ago, i'm not sure there is much in the way of modern relevance.

Zidane was given 2 years in charge of RM's B team before being allowed to take over the first team.

In the equivalent period to Ole's:

Won: Champion's League
2nd: La Liga
Won: World Club Cup
Won: La Liga
Won: Champion's League
Won: UEFA Super Cup

Originally Posted by jem

if there's one thing we've learned from history, it's not that managers just need time to turn into busby or fergie. I'd give ole longer, but don't kid yourself.

if there's another thing we've learned, it's that fergie's support doesn't stop a manager from moyesing it up.

Moyse wasn't Ferguson's or the club's first choice though and when hindsight either shouldn't have been appointed or given more than 8 months (I'd have gone for the former, as am sure would most here). But he came on board and tore up the structure of what had been left by Ferguson, just as Jose did things his way.
Ole is far different. He's bringing stability and the tradition of the way things ought to have been done. The United way No guarantee he'll succeed, but I'd much rather we support him than bring in the current flavour of the month (again and again until we win something).

Originally Posted by tatty

Busby took over United over 75 years ago, i'm not sure there is much in the way of modern relevance.

Zidane was given 2 years in charge of RM's B team before being allowed to take over the first team.

In the equivalent period to Ole's:

Won: Champion's League
2nd: La Liga
Won: World Club Cup
Won: La Liga
Won: Champion's League
Won: UEFA Super Cup

Zidane was officilly advising Perez and in charge of the sporting side of the club from 2009, years before he got into coaching. He was part of Madrid's set up for ages and seamlessly moved into the management role, in a club whose existing set up he was already totally familiar with, and with players who he knew inside out. Madrid had also won the CL a couple of seasons before he took over and he was gifted a sublime squad (Ronaldo, Bale, Kroos, Benzema, Ramos and Varane etc). Totally different set of circumstances to Ole when he took over United.

really don't want to look back on this unique opportunity to have Ronaldo's final good years wasted. The time really is now for this squad, it stacks up against any squad in Europe, even if the midfield is lacking.

The attacking depth is now borderline absurd and we've signed one of the best defenders in the world at his peak.

Originally Posted by BarryX

He needs to be in the mix, for sure. QF of the Champions League and within a few points of first place at a minimum. If he gets us close enough, then I'd still give him the first quarter of next season as well before even considering sacking him (i.e a full pre-season with Ronnie and the defensive midfielder we need to round off the current crop).

At the end of the day, all of our teams from our glory days - from the Busby Babes through to the last team that won the CL - had their off days. No manager made perfect selections or got the subs right in each and every match. Tonight may well have been the result of a comedown from a truly euphoric weekend, and hopefully just a blip (and a truly unfortunate one at that).

I say %@#$&!s to the Ole out brigade and the tantrums over a solitary loss. Love Utd, love Ole, love SAF (who no doubt supports him in his role) and hate the Glazers.

On.

Originally Posted by Stickman

really don't want to look back on this unique opportunity to have Ronaldo's final good years wasted. The time really is now for this squad, it stacks up against any squad in Europe, even if the midfield is lacking.

The attacking depth is now borderline absurd and we've signed one of the best defenders in the world at his peak.

Yep

If we’re not right in the mix for both the league and in Europe come the end of the season then Ole needs to go. Probably needs to win something too

You can't knock the promising things he has done. He undoubtedly hauled the club back on the right tracks but I'd wager that after the penny finally dropped with the Jose experiment and the club finally realising they can't just chuck names at it, that we could have hired many ex players as 'long term' coaches and they could've done the same.

You'd have to say he's improved from his first couple of seasons. But he's really lacking all too often for me, miserably out his depth but he's got very good players which allows him to compete.

I tend to shy away from posting this type of viewpoint as there can be a bit of a condescending contingent on here ready to shut down any poster that can't see the 'miracles' Ole has worked.

But there you have it, do not rate im afraid.

Barry - do you think Ole Gunnar Solskjaer is a top quality manager?

Originally Posted by BarryX

Pointing out that the two most successful managers in our club's history were given 5 and 7 years, respectively, to win the league is hardly desperation



So let me get this straight, you're (i.e. you, Sparky et al) are telling me that the manager with the longest unbeaten run in the history of top flight English football isn't a top quality manager? Someone who finished second, last year (in only his second full season in charge) to a verified 'elite' manager, with a much stronger squad, beating him twice along the way

.

First, what I am saying is that football in 1945 and football in 2021 are completely not comparable. And it’s desperation to try and do so. Better to compare him with his contemporaries no?

Second, yes despite all that I don’t think Ole is an elite manager. On no objective criteria could you claim him to be one. (I’m not sure an underarm away run counts). Whether he will one day become one is a separate discussion. But claiming a manger who has won absolutely nothing outside of Norway is right now an elite manager is way off.

Oh, and Fergie backed Moyes. Anything we should read into that? Should he have been given more time like Busby was?

Originally Posted by Stickman

Barry - do you think Ole Gunnar Solskjaer is a top quality manager?

He finished second in the toughest league in the world, took us to a European final and has the best away record in the history of the English top flight (all in his only second full season in charge). He's also assembled a squad that, on paper, many experts with far more knowledge than me believe is capable of winning the league and/or Champions League. And he's done so in the Utd way, promoting youth and exciting, attacking football.

Do I think he's a top quality manager? The facts answer the question for me: how can he not be (even if he does still make the odd mistake)?

Originally Posted by BarryX

So let me get this straight, you're (i.e. you, Sparky et al) are telling me that the manager with the longest unbeaten run in the history of top flight English football isn't a top quality manager? Someone who finished second, last year (in only his second full season in charge) to a verified 'elite' manager, with a much stronger squad, beating him twice along the way

Well in Barry

Completely agree and will never agree with the 'out of his depth' and 'clueless' nonsense that get's repeated. It's utter tosh.

The only sub I disagreed with yesterday was the DVB one, and maybe bringing on Martial instead of Greenwood, but I don't think they would have made a difference. The change to 5 at the back made sense, and even the Lingard sub made sense. We needed someone who could press their back line, that wasn't a job Ronaldo was going to do 60odd minutes into a game, and it's something Lingard can do well. It's pretty much the exact job he had at West Ham last season when everyone was praising him for how well he was playing. The issue was, is and always will be the midfield until it gets sorted out... And Lingard putting them through on goal in the last minute. That probably didn't help.

Originally Posted by Patty_b

Well in Barry

Completely agree and will never agree with the 'out of his depth' and 'clueless' nonsense that get's repeated. It's utter tosh.

The only sub I disagreed with yesterday was the DVB one, and maybe bringing on Martial instead of Greenwood, but I don't think they would have made a difference. The change to 5 at the back made sense, and even the Lingard sub made sense. We needed someone who could press their back line, that wasn't a job Ronaldo was going to do 60odd minutes into a game, and it's something Lingard can do well. It's pretty much the exact job he had at West Ham last season when everyone was praising him for how well he was playing. The issue was, is and always will be the midfield until it gets sorted out... And Lingard putting them through on goal in the last minute. That probably didn't help.

What?

Beek off, lingard on rather than Greenwood, lingard moved into midfield, Fred (someone who can run) off for Martial (the laziest player we’ve got) etc etc.

It was like he was on acid. Absolute car crash tactics and strategy.

Re ole - he’s done 90% of the job right in my eyes and has assembled a squad that can compete with a huge step change in leadership and mentality. We play football in the tradition of the club and it’s generally exciting stuff.

But the last 10% is putting that altogether in a coherent plan that’s effective and successful. Until he’s successful, there will always be doubts about his ability to be successful and he needs to bag a decent trophy this year to advance his case. He certainly has the squad to do it but last night showed what a chaotic mess could be created relatively easily. It was a dreadful performance made worse by the managers decision making. If he continues to do that, he won’t win anything and the argument of whether he’s good or not will be redundant.

Personally I have doubts about him and nothing I’ve seen so far has eroded the doubts that grew during last season.

Originally Posted by Hyman_Roth

What?

Beek off, lingard on rather than Greenwood, lingard moved into midfield, Fred (someone who can run) off for Martial (the laziest player we’ve got) etc etc.

It was like he was on acid. Absolute car crash tactics and strategy.

Re ole - he’s done 90% of the job right in my eyes and has assembled a squad that can compete with a huge step change in leadership and mentality. We play football in the tradition of the club and it’s generally exciting stuff.

But the last 10% is putting that altogether in a coherent plan that’s effective and successful. Until he’s successful, there will always be doubts about his ability to be successful and he needs to bag a decent trophy this year to advance his case. He certainly has the squad to do it but last night showed what a chaotic mess could be created relatively easily. It was a dreadful performance made worse by the managers decision making. If he continues to do that, he won’t win anything and the argument of whether he’s good or not will be redundant.

Personally I have doubts about him and nothing I’ve seen so far has eroded the doubts that grew during last season.

Did you miss the two home games when we scored a total of 8 goals?