Jesseh Lingard....

Originally Posted by Bunker Buster

Originally Posted by dunk

There may be a case of that, doesn't change the fact that pointing your ire at the kids coming through for not being good enough when we've spent half a billion is blaming the wrong players. Especially when you're complaining that the plethora of stunning, important goals isn't enough and it will all fade eventually

I'm certainly not making that last point.

I think if we're assessing any potential drop in standard, it should be based on the player playing, not how much they cost.

Unfortunately for us, there's a range of player profiles who have disapointed and dropped the standard since Fergie left, from players who should never be first choice in their position but are (Valencia, Smalling, Jones, Young) to expensive flops (Di Maria, Mkhitrayan) to young players we have blooded and excused being below standard simply because they're kids (McNair, Wilson) to players we overrate because we see glimpses in them from time to time (Martial, Mata, Rashford).

The end result is we still have too much shit in our squad from various managers since Fergie left.

Originally Posted by Billy Redface

I'm certainly not making that last point.

I think if we're assessing any potential drop in standard, it should be based on the player playing, not how much they cost.

Unfortunately for us, there's a range of player profiles who have disapointed and dropped the standard since Fergie left, from players who should never be first choice in their position but are (Valencia, Smalling, Jones, Young) to expensive flops (Di Maria, Mkhitrayan) to young players we have blooded and excused being below standard simply because they're kids (McNair, Wilson) to players we overrate because we see glimpses in them from time to time (Martial, Mata, Rashford).

The end result is we still have too much shit in our squad from various managers since Fergie left.

I know, that wasn't aimed at you.

The difference, for me, is the players purchased are specifically to improve the first team, the players coming through are just part of the conveyor belt of the club, 99% make absolutely no impact on the first team, they are just sold or released to the game. When one makes it into the first team, it's because they have the ability and they deserve it and they are doing something better than the players that were purchased in some cases. Therefore they deserve greater patience and opportunity and those that were purchased deserve the greater critique/focus.

Originally Posted by dunk

I know, that wasn't aimed at you.

The difference, for me, is the players purchased are specifically to improve the first team, the players coming through are just part of the conveyor belt of the club, 99% make absolutely no impact on the first team, they are just sold or released to the game. When one makes it into the first team, it's because they have the ability and they deserve it and they are doing something better than the players that were purchased in some cases. Therefore they deserve greater patience and opportunity and those that were purchased deserve the greater critique/focus.

Cool.

as much as we say Lingard has been given chances, I'd argue he is the best example of that player taking his chance and forcing himself in to the manager's plans.

He plays his best football in a very competitive area of the pitch, specifically earmarked for Henrik Mkhitaryan. H.M.s form dipped and Lingard was given more chances. And he took them. He added value to the position to the point where he became indispensable and we were comfortable selling H.M.

I genuinely don't think he would have sold him if Lingard wasn't having such a good season.

The same was starting to happen with Martial. Then we signed Sanchez. Who i was convinced would play from the right.....but instead seems to be picked ahead of one of the other two, pushing the other out of position.

Of Martial, Rashford and Lingard, Lingard is the least talented imo....but he's the one who has been the best of the three and you make a case for him being our best player this season, certainly our most improved. He was getting the same amount of chances as the other two, he just took them. Now he gets more. And even when he's dropped, he still comes on and gets the match winner against Chelsea

Originally Posted by dunk

I know, that wasn't aimed at you.

The difference, for me, is the players purchased are specifically to improve the first team, the players coming through are just part of the conveyor belt of the club, 99% make absolutely no impact on the first team, they are just sold or released to the game. When one makes it into the first team, it's because they have the ability and they deserve it and they are doing something better than the players that were purchased in some cases. Therefore they deserve greater patience and opportunity and those that were purchased deserve the greater critique/focus.

But surely if we're a side giving a chance to kids, then they aren't simply to supplement the signings, they're as important? If we're making a commitment to youth, then we prioritise them or at least put them on an equal footing to signings.

I do fundamentally believe the youngsters deserve a bit more slack than signings, but not much. And it depends what kind of slack. If it's simply errors of maturity and consistency you associate with kids, that's fine, but if it's because they simply don't look good enough, aren't developing or aren't working hard enough..... it should be ok to point that out.

An example at the moment is how quick people are to jump down Sanchez's throat. We expect him to instantly fit right in.

Why?

Because we know he's good? Because he's 29? Does he not need time to adapt to a new club like anyone else?

But when Marcus Rashford stupidly lines up a free kick from 40 yards in Seville, with 30 seconds plus to think about what he's doing, with over 50 United games under his belt, are we not right to criticise and question his decision to take it on blast it wildly wide?

Originally Posted by S/Side.Red

Well there we go. So let's not pretend we are committed to youth development then. You can't give a striker three games up front all season, say you're not really bothered about the future and then claim that you're in any way an advocate of developing players.



We're talking goals here, pal. It's not a major stretch to relate a forward's productivity to his ability to score and create goals.

Martial has the talent, he has been scoring when given the chances. I'm not sure what you feel he has to prove to get more minutes.

Why does Rashford have to play up front to have an impact. He's shown he can do it from the left.

Half the team doesn't get to play in their favoured positions.

Plenty of kids down the years had to make initial sacrifices and play different areas to develop.

Giggs played right wing when Lee Sharpe played. Fletcher started on the right wing and never looked comfortable. Roy Keane played right back for a while. Welbeck left wing. All under a manager who was famed for giving kids a chance.

I'm sure Rashford would love to start up front, but he needs to do more out wide for now.


I like the kid, but he's had a lot of chances this season and hasn't done enough. And now that's affecting how many chances he gets.

Originally Posted by Billy Redface

Why does Rashford have to play up front to have an impact. He's shown he can do it from the left.

Half the team doesn't get to play in their favoured positions.

Plenty of kids down the years had to make initial sacrifices and play different areas to develop.

Giggs played right wing when Lee Sharpe played. Fletcher started on the right wing and never looked comfortable. Roy Keane played right back for a while. Welbeck left wing. All under a manager who was famed for giving kids a chance.

I'm sure Rashford would love to start up front, but he needs to do more out wide for now.


I like the kid, but he's had a lot of chances this season and hasn't done enough. And now that's affecting how many chances he gets.

He doesn't have to play up front every week, just regularly would be alright. Not three times a season. I'm not saying he will be a world beater (he could be) but don't be surprised if a striker who never gets to play up front doesn't really develop much.

Similar issue with Martial. You say we overrate him but he's scored at a ratio in the league of a goal every 100 minutes or something. That's a great strike rate. One that might warrant getting more time on the field.

The psychological aspect of Rashford never getting games in his proper position and Martial being dropped constantly and the club scouring for players in his position is also an aspect that won't help either of them. Comes back to the issue of showing faith.

Originally Posted by S/Side.Red

He doesn't have to play up front every week, just regularly would be alright. Not three times a season. I'm not saying he will be a world beater (he could be) but don't be surprised if a striker who never gets to play up front doesn't really develop much.

Similar issue with Martial. You say we overrate him but he's scored at a ratio in the league of a goal every 100 minutes or something. That's a great strike rate. One that might warrant getting more time on the field.

The psychological aspect of Rashford never getting games in his proper position and Martial being dropped constantly and the club scouring for players in his position is also an aspect that won't help either of them. Comes back to the issue of showing faith.

Fair enough.

I think we're in danger of tarring everyone with the same brush here.

I think Martial is the unluckiest of the lot. He was doing his job consistently and then dropped as soon as he missed a good chance at Newcastle.

I think Rashford is the one who needs to improve the most. He has very little impact in games when he comes on and doesn't seemed to have improved many aspects of his game.

That is on him to do when he is given the chance, out of position or not. He has qualities as a wide player that we haven't seen enough of this season.

I think he's been given ample chances for the level of return.

He was on before Martial in Sevilla despite being out injured and in poor form before that.

And he was poor. Admittedly, it's just a cameo and it's a lot of pressure, but hey, this is playing for Manchester United. Its tough. And subs are there to have an impact. Lingard did it a few days later. And that will only improve his chances of playing more.

And it's hard to say this without people assuming you're having a go at the kid. I'm not. Its just an honest assessment of how he's kicked on. I think there has to be some responsibility on the player to improve himself.

I think he will come good and it's not for a lack of effort.

For the record, I don't think Marial is overrated. I think we sometimes think he's cracked it when he hasn't.

He's one of the most talented players we have.. easily. It could just all go very wrong for him in a heartbeat.

Originally Posted by Billy Redface

Fair enough.

I think we're in danger of tarring everyone with the same brush here.

I think Martial is the unluckiest of the lot. He was doing his job consistently and then dropped as soon as he missed a good chance at Newcastle.

I think Rashford is the one who needs to improve the most. He has very little impact in games when he comes on and doesn't seemed to have improved many aspects of his game.

That is on him to do when he is given the chance, out of position or not. He has qualities as a wide player that we haven't seen enough of this season.

I think he's been given ample chances for the level of return.

He was on before Martial in Sevilla despite being out injured and in poor form before that.

And he was poor. Admittedly, it's just a cameo and it's a lot of pressure, but hey, this is playing for Manchester United. Its tough. And subs are there to have an impact. Lingard did it a few days later. And that will only improve his chances of playing more.

And it's hard to say this without people assuming you're having a go at the kid. I'm not. Its just an honest assessment of how he's kicked on. I think there has to be some responsibility on the player to improve himself.

I think he will come good and it's not for a lack of effort.

For the record, I don't think Marial is overrated. I think we sometimes think he's cracked it when he hasn't.

He's one of the most talented players we have.. easily. It could just all go very wrong for him in a heartbeat.

Fair enough, good post and pretty much agree. I think Rashers looked a little frustrated earlier in the season. Lack of focus when he comes on more than anything maybe. Perhaps inevitable after the start he had to his career where nothing ever seemed to go wrong.

Originally Posted by S/Side.Red

Fair enough, good post and pretty much agree. I think Rashers looked a little frustrated earlier in the season. Lack of focus when he comes on more than anything maybe. Perhaps inevitable after the start he had to his career where nothing ever seemed to go wrong.

If anything I think he tries too hard. He's become strangely greedy. Wild shots when better options are on. I think that stems from trying too hard

"Right lads, watch THIS!..."

His finishing needs some work and he needs to be a little bit smarter. Development isn't just working hard, it's working hard at the right things.

Still so young ofcourse. He's still a kid living the dream.

Originally Posted by Bunker Buster

Young, gifted and black = 99’ers major bug bear...

Strange that....

Shut the £#%&! up you silly @#%&!. This internet persona you’ve been working so diligently on is becoming very tiresome. It’s hard for me to believe you’re this much of a sanctimonious @#%&! in real life.

Originally Posted by Tiberian

Why is this a thing now, the weaponizing of racial insinuations to win internet points?

Because he’s a #@&%! mate. Used to have time for him tbh. Not any more.

Jesus....

Originally Posted by utd99

It’s hard for me to believe you’re this much of a sanctimonious @#%&! in real life.

He isnt

Originally Posted by waynes ear's

He isnt

Originally Posted by Bunker Buster

Jesus....

It’s what you’re all about these days, right?

Well done.

Originally Posted by utd99

Shut the £#%&! up you silly @#%&!. This internet persona you’ve been working so diligently on is becoming very tiresome. It’s hard for me to believe you’re this much of a sanctimonious @#%&! in real life.



Because he’s a #@&%! mate. Used to have time for him tbh. Not any more.

Bunks being called out here.

Interesting to see where it goes.

Originally Posted by dunk

Going off Utd99's vision of how it should be, we'd never have a youth player make it unless they were Messi.

One of the most dishonest things posted on this website. No wonder your nickname on here these days is liar....

Originally Posted by saffers

One of the most dishonest things posted on this website. No wonder your nickname on here these days is liar....

You lying bastard. Enjoying your attempt to flip that one, failing miserably though

Jesse

Top player

His movement is incredible.

Originally Posted by AK14

Jesse

Top player

His movement is incredible.

So is a lobotomised whippet’s. Nothing player who runs a lot, is weak as water and , apart from the odd good goal here and there, does four fifths of £#%&! all. Erikkson is the level we should be aspiring to, not Lingard.

Eriksen is world class nqat

But a player like Jesse is important and has shown how much he’s improved this season, top player who’ll only get better IMO

Put it this way, I wouldn’t swap him for that snide bastard Ali.

Can’t knock him at all this year for his efforts but he’d be nowhere bear the team if we had players capable of pushing us towards the league and CL.