A football thread - Our performances against the big 4 in the league

Our last 5 fixtures against the big 4 have gone as follows:

Chelsea - 0 goals
Liverpool - 0 goals
Arsenal - 1 Penalty & 1 OG
Arsenal - 0 goals
Liverpool - 1 Penalty

I thought we were good against Chelsea, without ever truly looking like scoring. We proved last season that we don't particularly need to win these fixtures if we want to win the league, but there's certainly no harm in it.

Has Fergie just got his tactics wrong in these big fixtures?

Interesting, likewise you could argue, that we won the league last year despite the fact that we did poorly against them rather because of and any overall masterplan.

Might not be so fortunate this season.

Originally Posted by Fatboy Shrek

Our last 5 fixtures against the big 4 have gone as follows:

Chelsea - 0 goals
Liverpool - 0 goals
Arsenal - 1 Penalty & 1 OG
Arsenal - 0 goals
Liverpool - 1 Penalty

I thought we were good against Chelsea, without ever truly looking like scoring. We proved last season that we don't particularly need to win these fixtures if we want to win the league, but there's certainly no harm in it.

Has Fergie just got his tactics wrong in these big fixtures?

Chelsea - 0
Liverpool - 0
Arsenal - 2
Arsenal - 0
Arsenal - 3

Two of them are away at the hardest grounds for us to go to, the other was at home in a game we needed to draw to win the league.

Edit; I missed the league bit.

We've become too predictable again to an extent. Against Chelsea each move was a host of sideways passes and then a hopeful cross slung in from wide areas. Having said that Chelsea have only let 1 goal in at home all season, so it was always going to be tough there.

Against Arsenal at home was a struggle, but it usually is for us. Simply because the way Arsenal play. They are the closest thing we have in this league to a Spanish style team and we always struggle against teams who keep the ball well. It's part of the reason our record in europe is so crap against Spanish teams.

Our last 3 games against Liverpool have been shockers. Absolute shockers. No excuses for those.

Against the clubs outside of the top 4/5 places, our class usually tells, but against our closest rivals, where you don't get 7-8 great chances every game, where the fine margins decide the games - we're showing our lack of cutting edge and more importantly the chronic lack of pace in the team. We don't have a 25+ goal a season player in the team anymore and it shows. Chelsea have 2, Arsenal have a couple of players who will weigh in with 15-20 each, Liverpool have Torres, even city have Adebayor.

This is what will eventually cost us this season. When it comes to the crunch, we won't be able to put the ball in the net.

Originally Posted by Sparky***

This is what will eventually cost us this season.

I don't think we'll win the league this season, no matter what it was always going to be hard to win it 4 on the bounce. I'd be happy with any cup tbh. We'll finish 2nd in the league. I think there will be quite a few changes this summer players out/in.

against liverpool, yes - tactics wrong. against chelsea i think we had a few good chances and were royally £#%&!ed over by the ref. against arsenal we scored freely in the champs league (don't see the point in just keeping to league, it's the same team).

we're in transition, no doubt, but i think the goal threat is there.

having fletcher back will make a big difference imo. more freedom to throw players forward with him behind.

Its got to the point where we'll do well to have 3/4 shots on target at those grounds.

A rethink is badly needed, ok we played well on Sunday - but at Half Time I think it was obvious what was coming, and that we'd then pull out all the stops for a goal only once we went behind.

I too think there could be 3/4 significant ins and outs in summer 2010.

Originally Posted by borsuk

against liverpool, yes - tactics wrong. against chelsea i think we had a few good chances and were royally £#%&!ed over by the ref. against arsenal we scored freely in the champs league (don't see the point in just keeping to league, it's the same team).

we're in transition, no doubt, but i think the goal threat is there.

having fletcher back will make a big difference imo. more freedom to throw players forward with him behind.

We certainly have a better return in these games when Fletcher is about, but i disagree with what you said about the Chelsea game. Did we actually open them up properly? For a game we were 'unlucky' in, i don't think we did enough to win the game, we barely created one proper chance.

What benefits us is that we can go to any other ground outside of these 3 and win, stylishly as well. I just think we've got it wrong recently against these lot, especially Chelsea and i often go into games expecting us not to score. That for me is the key, a lot of people i know didn't think we'd score on Sunday and low and behold we didn't.

That said i haven't a clue what the answer is.

Originally Posted by Fatboy Shrek

We certainly have a better return in these games when Fletcher is about, but i disagree with what you said about the Chelsea game. Did we actually open them up properly? For a game we were 'unlucky' in, i don't think we did enough to win the game, we barely created one proper chance.

What benefits us is that we can go to any other ground outside of these 3 and win, stylishly as well. I just think we've got it wrong recently against these lot, especially Chelsea and i often go into games expecting us not to score. That for me is the key, a lot of people i know didn't think we'd score on Sunday and low and behold we didn't.

That said i haven't a clue what the answer is.

Buy Fabregas, Torres and Essien, otherwise known as our rivals best players. It's the only way.

Originally Posted by Fatboy Shrek

Our last 5 fixtures against the big 4 have gone as follows:

Chelsea - 0 goals
Liverpool - 0 goals
Arsenal - 1 Penalty & 1 OG
Arsenal - 0 goals
Liverpool - 1 Penalty

I thought we were good against Chelsea, without ever truly looking like scoring. We proved last season that we don't particularly need to win these fixtures if we want to win the league, but there's certainly no harm in it.

Has Fergie just got his tactics wrong in these big fixtures?

Out of interest, how did we do in the five before that?

Originally Posted by dodger

Out of interest, how did we do in the five before that?

Pointless question. The trend over the past 5 has been both developing and concerning, hence the point of the thread I'd assume.

Not really into football threads tbh.

Originally Posted by dodger

Out of interest, how did we do in the five before that?

Off memory. I think we beat chelsea comfortably, lost at anfield and emirates. drew at stamford bridge and lost at stamford bridge.

That's besides the point though, i'm talking about now, not 2007.

It's primarily our away form against the others at the top of the league.

I posted a stat on it the other day, can't even remember what it was, I think it was something like 3 points of out a possible 18 away against Liverpool, Arsenal & Chelsea recently.

Scoring first is the most important thing - for me, Fergie has made some catastrophic team selections in that time. Neville at Arsenal when Nasri made him his bitch. Scholes & Carrick in midfield away to Liverpool this season, Anderson on the wing last season... I'm not saying we'd of got anything out of the games had we started with the benefit of hindsight, given we played the game with the best tactics & personnel we could against Chelsea recently & still lost. But it would have £#%&!ing helped.

A genuine, attacking, solid right back is required. We have multiple options there, none are the right one for 'now'. Neville against shit teams without a pacey winger, great. O'Shea against teams you want someone with height. Rafael against shit or if we're chasing but you can't start him. Brown... just out of favour there.

I suspect it goes back to the school of thought that our midfield sets up best as a 3, & our strikers best as a 2. Repeated on here over & over. not sure what the solution is, unless we find a left sided, attacking, creative & goal scoring solution.

Originally Posted by Baron_van_Marlon

It's primarily our away form against the others at the top of the league.

I posted a stat on it the other day, can't even remember what it was, I think it was something like 3 points of out a possible 18 away against Liverpool, Arsenal & Chelsea recently.

Scoring first is the most important thing - for me, Fergie has made some catastrophic team selections in that time. Neville at Arsenal when Nasri made him his bitch. Scholes & Carrick in midfield away to Liverpool this season, Anderson on the wing last season... I'm not saying we'd of got anything out of the games had we started with the benefit of hindsight, given we played the game with the best tactics & personnel we could against Chelsea recently & still lost. But it would have £#%&!ing helped.

A genuine, attacking, solid right back is required. We have multiple options there, none are the right one for 'now'. Neville against shit teams without a pacey winger, great. O'Shea against teams you want someone with height. Rafael against shit or if we're chasing but you can't start him. Brown... just out of favour there.

I suspect it goes back to the school of thought that our midfield sets up best as a 3, & our strikers best as a 2. Repeated on here over & over. not sure what the solution is, unless we find a left sided, attacking, creative & goal scoring solution.

when fit, Id promote him to first choice. Hes going to grow into one hell of a player and what better time to try him than now?

Originally Posted by Stickman

when fit, Id promote him to first choice. Hes going to grow into one hell of a player and what better time to try him than now?

Really?

He gets dragged in field easily, the Blackburn game when he (didn't) drag back Pederson etc... I really like him, & his twin, but when we have Vidic & Rio out & aren't so solid, it's an open invitation to attack us there. Valencia must have a full back that goes past him though to make the most of his game.

A goalscoring central midfielder and a striker who can play as a sole front man is a more pressing concern for me, rather than right back.

Rafael just needs experience, bringing in another right back is only going to stunt his progress.

Originally Posted by Coracao

A goalscoring central midfielder and a striker who can play as a sole front man is a more pressing concern for me, rather than right back.

Rafael just needs experience, bringing in another right back is only going to stunt his progress.

That's the key.

Oh for a 21 year old Paul Scholes.

Originally Posted by Baron_van_Marlon

Really?

He gets dragged in field easily, the Blackburn game when he (didn't) drag back Pederson etc... I really like him, & his twin, but when we have Vidic & Rio out & aren't so solid, it's an open invitation to attack us there. Valencia must have a full back that goes past him though to make the most of his game.

100% mate.

Talent like that needs to go in at the deep end. He'd absolute thrive after a run.

Originally Posted by Coracao

A goalscoring central midfielder and a striker who can play as a sole front man is a more pressing concern for me, rather than right back.

Rafael just needs experience, bringing in another right back is only going to stunt his progress.

If the rest of the team is solid, retains posession & scores, it's a given. But in the current circumstances, where we're not creating enough in these games & the centre of the defence is chopping & changing, I think it would be difficult to play Rafael anytime soon week in week out.

He is only 18/19. No massive rush, surely.