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Old 11-06-2014, 07:11 PM
TripDownMiseryLane
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by red in cumbria
And why do you think the Baltic states were so keen to join NATO, pal? Any guesses??
I didn't say I agreed with them, I said I could understand their concerns, which those at the head of NATO, the yanks, either can't or can and don't care.

after the collapse of the SU, a neutral zone should have been created that included all the previous SU aligned nations, including poland, where NATO would agree not to expand into.
 
Old 11-06-2014, 07:18 PM
Stakker
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fountz
http://io9.com/what-europe-will-look...ium=socialflow

Two years ago, the Russian tabloid Express Gazeta published a series of maps depicting its vision of Europe 23 years hence. Given the recent tensions in Ukraine and elsewhere, the maps are proving disturbingly prescient a mere two years later — which hasn't gone unnoticed by Russian nationalists.

According to Express Gazeta, the maps were compiled after analyzing "open source" information from the CIA, GRU (Russian intelligence), and a number of research institutes, along with Alvin Toffler, Zbigniew Brzezinski and Samuel Huntington. It's a dubious claim at best.

Not surprisingly, the maps are, in the words of Foreign Policy's Frank Jacobs, "a cartographic illustration of Russian wish fulfillment, reflecting the hopes and frustrations of at least a small segment of Russian public opinion." And indeed, though the maps were compiled in 2012, a nationalist Russian blog recently republished them with renewed enthusiasm given the events in Ukraine.

Eerily, the maps show an annexed Crimea (which has happened), along with an absorbed Donbass region of eastern Ukraine, an area that's currently experiencing something akin to a proto-civil war.
...




Ominously prescient so far!

.
So basically, everyone elses territory gets smaller as ethnic tensions fuel unrest that leads to breakaway enclaves, but Russia gets bigger for exactly the same reason?

Deluded c***s.

Last edited by Stakker; 11-06-2014 at 07:23 PM.
 
Old 11-06-2014, 07:20 PM
denis lawless
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TripDownMiseryLane
I didn't say I agreed with them, I said I could understand their concerns, which those at the head of NATO, the yanks, either can't or can and don't care.

after the collapse of the SU, a neutral zone should have been created that included all the previous SU aligned nations, including poland, where NATO would agree not to expand into.
trouble with poland is, they hate russia more than they hate germany these days...mainly because over recent history, the russians under the soviet banner were the oppressor.....germany's misdemeanors seem to have been push to the back of their collective mind.....worst geographical spot to try and run a country tbh.
 
Old 12-06-2014, 08:30 AM
Fountz
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by denis lawless
and if all else fails..they'll slice you up like a kipper with those fold away penknives
...and for good measure, beat them up using a large Toblerone... those angles and points?!! :shakehead:
 
Old 12-06-2014, 08:36 AM
Lazlo Panaflex
 
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TripDownMiseryLane
I didn't say I agreed with them, I said I could understand their concerns, which those at the head of NATO, the yanks, either can't or can and don't care.

after the collapse of the SU, a neutral zone should have been created that included all the previous SU aligned nations, including poland, where NATO would agree not to expand into.
why?

Poland and the rest wanted to join NATO, why should they not? they were under the yolk of russian oppression for 40 years but shouldn't be allowed to take advantage of means to protect themselves, because it might upset the f***ing russians
 
Old 12-06-2014, 08:49 AM
Stakker
 
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lazlo Panaflex
why?

Poland and the rest wanted to join NATO, why should they not? they were under the yolk of russian oppression for 40 years but shouldn't be allowed to take advantage of means to protect themselves, because it might upset the f***ing russians
This. Ridiculous.
 
Old 12-06-2014, 08:53 AM
TripDownMiseryLane
 
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lazlo Panaflex
why?

Poland and the rest wanted to join NATO, why should they not? they were under the yolk of russian oppression for 40 years but shouldn't be allowed to take advantage of means to protect themselves, because it might upset the f***ing russians
In the interests of long term peace that is usually reached by negotiation and agreement, as opposed to arming everyone to the teeth. There is also a strong argument to suggest that NATO is primarily a vehicle for increasing and maintaining US hegemony, rather then protecting anyone. ask the folks in Iraq or Afganistan if they feel protected.

The russians themselves were under the yolk of the CCCP also remember.

Last edited by TripDownMiseryLane; 12-06-2014 at 08:59 AM.
 
Old 12-06-2014, 09:20 AM
Lazlo Panaflex
 
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TripDownMiseryLane
In the interests of long term peace that is usually reached by negotiation and agreement, as opposed to arming everyone to the teeth. There is also a strong argument to suggest that NATO is primarily a vehicle for increasing and maintaining US hegemony.
Who makes that decision on behalf of these former eastern bloc states?

Who has the right to do that?

You appear to be looking at it exclusively in terms of anti-US perspective.

But what about countries who for years were under control of Moscow?

They now had their chance to move away from this and you say no, because it will promote peace.

Do you think Russia will respect that if they wanted to expand into these states? that they will stay, oh no, wait, they decided not to protect themselves, we must respect that?

The russians will expand if and when they want. Or at least try. They never will, or ever have, respect the individual wishes of their neighbours. We all see what happens when states wanted to pull away from Russian influence when Russia is in a condition to prevent it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TripDownMiseryLane
The russians themselves were under the yolk of the CCCP also remember.
yeah sure.
 
Old 12-06-2014, 11:00 AM
TripDownMiseryLane
 
Default

[quote=Lazlo Panaflex;3777803]Who makes that decision on behalf of these former eastern bloc states?

Who has the right to do that?

You appear to be looking at it exclusively in terms of anti-US perspective.

But what about countries who for years were under control of Moscow?

They now had their chance to move away from this and you say no, because it will promote peace.

Do you think Russia will respect that if they wanted to expand into these states? that they will stay, oh no, wait, they decided not to protect themselves, we must respect that?

The russians will expand if and when they want. Or at least try. They never will, or ever have, respect the individual wishes of their neighbours. We all see what happens when states wanted to pull away from Russian influence when Russia is in a condition to prevent it.

The point being, if NATO aggressively expands right up to Russian borders, as they have done and continue to do, the Russians are forced into defensive reactions and pre-emptive actions, as they have done and will continue to do. There is no way they can look on as NATO continually to spreads east.

You seem to think that NATO is some kind of benign agency akin to the UN and take no account of A. The fall of the CCCP and B.Western invasions of Russia in the past 200 years.

There should have been an overall settlement, rather then NATO expansion.
 
Old 12-06-2014, 03:33 PM
red in cumbria
 
Default

All this talk of being under the "yolk" is making me fancy a Spanish omelette
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