United - What the hell is wrong?

Originally Posted by Sparky***

he's spot on tbf. great post alan.

so which is it, then: fergie doesn't know phelan and rene are clueless or he knows and just doesn't give a shit? i mean, do you honestly, all hyperbole aside, think that van persie has gone from arsenal to united and is thinking he's in a less professional coaching setup?

Originally Posted by Tumescent Throb

er no, his opening line was about a computer game

and it isn't a story, it's an identity

Yeah, alright mate. Anyway...

Originally Posted by borsuk

so which is it, then: fergie doesn't know phelan and rene are clueless or he knows and just doesn't give a shit? i mean, do you honestly, all hyperbole aside, think that van persie has gone from arsenal to united and is thinking he's in a less professional coaching setup?

I can't speak for what van persie thinks, what i can comment on is what i see on the pitch, which is a mess to put it lightly. A very expensively assembled mess consisting of good players somehow playing awful, one paced football.

We are probably doing well with the players we have / or can realistically sign .
Doesn't make easier to watch though it's painful tbh
At least up till now we a still competing far better that than a verminesque type of demise
We've got fergie to thank for that it could be far worse with the gimps as owners .

Originally Posted by Sparky***

I can't speak for what van persie thinks, what i can comment on is what i see on the pitch, which is a mess to put it lightly. A very expensively assembled mess consisting of good players somehow playing awful, one paced football.

that's not an answer to the question i asked...

i think the criticism is ridiculously ott, but there are shortcomings. it's not a coaching issue imo, it's a lack of a player or two in the middle of the field. if anderson had developed the way he was supposed to and if fletcher was healthy we'd be ok, but anderson's a fat £#%&! and fletcher's a mess. that's the problem imo. maybe fergie should have £#%&!ed one or both off but he's stuck with them, right or wrong, and unless/until one or both starts playing to their potential we'll have problems in the middle of the field.

i actually think united have looked to adopt a progressive approach in the last couple of years; the problem is in the execution. there's a discernible emphasis on retaining possession, as is the vogue at the moment, and this is borne out by recent statistics highlighting united's superior pass completion rate. i would imagine it was also a factor in scholes' return as he can provide that element of control better than anyone. i expect all this has emanated from the two houndings that barca gave us, but the obvious difference is that we lack mobility and tempo, and are instead cautious and static where past united sides have been cavalier. we've become control freaks, creating problems and risks through our own desperation to avoid them.

i also don't think it's done us any favours assembling a team of lettuce leaves who can use the ball tidily but fail to dominate space. if you can press constantly it becomes less of an issue, but united's pragmatic style also seems to involve conserving energy, and as a result we seem to play within ourselves too often. in which case - particularly in the premier league - the obvious solution is more physical presence, but we lack that too, and combined with the trappings of the system it means we invite teams on when we should be looking to take the game to them. we're neutered, basically.

Originally Posted by taff

i actually think united have looked to adopt a progressive approach in the last couple of years; the problem is in the execution. there's a discernible emphasis on retaining possession, as is the vogue at the moment, and this is borne out by recent statistics highlighting united's superior pass completion rate. i would imagine it was also a factor in scholes' return as he can provide that element of control better than anyone. i expect all this has emanated from the two houndings that barca gave us, but the obvious difference is that we lack mobility and tempo, and are instead cautious and static where past united sides have been cavalier. we've become control freaks, creating problems and risks through our own desperation to avoid them.

i also don't think it's done us any favours assembling a team of lettuce leaves who can use the ball tidily but fail to dominate space. if you can press constantly it becomes less of an issue, but united's pragmatic style also seems to involve conserving energy, and as a result we seem to play within ourselves too often. in which case - particularly in the premier league - the obvious solution is more physical presence, but we lack that too, and combined with the trappings of the system it means we invite teams on when we should be looking to take the game to them. we're neutered, basically.

.

Originally Posted by taff

i actually think united have looked to adopt a progressive approach in the last couple of years; the problem is in the execution. there's a discernible emphasis on retaining possession, as is the vogue at the moment, and this is borne out by recent statistics highlighting united's superior pass completion rate. i would imagine it was also a factor in scholes' return as he can provide that element of control better than anyone. i expect all this has emanated from the two houndings that barca gave us, but the obvious difference is that we lack mobility and tempo, and are instead cautious and static where past united sides have been cavalier. we've become control freaks, creating problems and risks through our own desperation to avoid them.

i also don't think it's done us any favours assembling a team of lettuce leaves who can use the ball tidily but fail to dominate space. if you can press constantly it becomes less of an issue, but united's pragmatic style also seems to involve conserving energy, and as a result we seem to play within ourselves too often. in which case - particularly in the premier league - the obvious solution is more physical presence, but we lack that too, and combined with the trappings of the system it means we invite teams on when we should be looking to take the game to them. we're neutered, basically.

top post.....still can't believe we didn't address the midfield problem and get at least one creative midfielder in the summer

Originally Posted by taff

i actually think united have looked to adopt a progressive approach in the last couple of years; the problem is in the execution. there's a discernible emphasis on retaining possession, as is the vogue at the moment, and this is borne out by recent statistics highlighting united's superior pass completion rate. i would imagine it was also a factor in scholes' return as he can provide that element of control better than anyone. i expect all this has emanated from the two houndings that barca gave us, but the obvious difference is that we lack mobility and tempo, and are instead cautious and static where past united sides have been cavalier. we've become control freaks, creating problems and risks through our own desperation to avoid them.

i also don't think it's done us any favours assembling a team of lettuce leaves who can use the ball tidily but fail to dominate space. if you can press constantly it becomes less of an issue, but united's pragmatic style also seems to involve conserving energy, and as a result we seem to play within ourselves too often. in which case - particularly in the premier league - the obvious solution is more physical presence, but we lack that too, and combined with the trappings of the system it means we invite teams on when we should be looking to take the game to them. we're neutered, basically.

I agree completely. We are being shown up physically time after time especially in Europe. Where once they stood off mesmerised by the passing game you speak of, now they turn us round quickly and easily and the more we try and make sure they can't the more we destroy out own rhythm and end up giving the way ever more cheaply.

Originally Posted by Sparky***

Yeah, alright mate. Anyway...



I can't speak for what van persie thinks, what i can comment on is what i see on the pitch, which is a mess to put it lightly. A very expensively assembled mess consisting of good players somehow playing awful, one paced football.

silly boy

Originally Posted by Sparky***

I know, the nerve posting a football thread related to Man Utd on a man utd forum.

Got anymore shit music threads for us pol?

Isn't it? "Dylans new stuff" or "Dylans old stuff" or "Dylans middle stuff" or "JQX Turntables".

Absolute £#%&!ing dullard. All he adds is snidey £#%&!ing comments instead of either adding to a thread or ignoring it. He seems to hate anything you or me type, but he has to have a go (always after someone else has first, obviously)

Originally Posted by Alan

Frogson these days seems to treat United like a game of champ manager. He picks random players from the tombola in random 'shapes', presses 'play' and sits back and watches. There appears to be zero organisation of the team. Nobody knows wtf they are supposed to be doing.
I am embarassed on United's behalf at what RVP and Kagawa must be thinking when they go into training organised by that bald £#%&!ing simpleton.

Consistency in selection and tactics would certainly help, but you need someone to actually teach those tactics. It looks like nobody does that at all.

It baffles me why Frogson is happy to spend multi millions on players, but have mongoloids coaching them, 'treating' their endless injuries, and scouting new players. I would be straight to newcastle nicking their scouts, £#%&!ing off that useless @#%&! in the shorts and seeing what @#%&!arse is upto. Or imagine getting Guardiola in, even part-time :mmmonkey:

United at present shows how good players can play crap football through awful coaching, whereas other sides show how inferior players can play better football through good coaching. Barcelona have both and a result are quite good tbh.

Agree with these bits - we do look shambolic most of the time. Everton - you'd have thought we (Ferie/Phelan) would've learned our lesson about Fellaini after last seasons Holocaust. Not a £#%&!ing chance. He danced through our midfield again and we had Carrick 'marking' him for the goal. Woeful.

Originally Posted by borsuk

that's not an answer to the question i asked...

i think the criticism is ridiculously ott, but there are shortcomings. it's not a coaching issue imo, it's a lack of a player or two in the middle of the field. if anderson had developed the way he was supposed to and if fletcher was healthy we'd be ok, but anderson's a fat £#%&! and fletcher's a mess. that's the problem imo. maybe fergie should have £#%&!ed one or both off but he's stuck with them, right or wrong, and unless/until one or both starts playing to their potential we'll have problems in the middle of the field.

Which leads us back to Fergie. A blind man in a coal bunker could see our central midfield is lacking in physical presence and creativity. Along with 99.9% of this forum. However, in order to address the perceived problem of a lack of goals he signs another striker (albeit a very good one) and a number 10 type player. It smacks to me of sticking another coat of gloss paint over a rotten window frame and thinking it will solve the problem. There was clearly no issue with available funds this summer but Ferguson spent diddly on the massive elephant in the room (insert Anderson joke here). Why only he knows but it's as baffling as £#%&!.

And no I'm not a spoilt @#%&! and I respect massively what he's done for us over the decades but he's got this one wrong.

Originally Posted by Billy Bigbollox

Which leads us back to Fergie. A blind man in a coal bunker could see our central midfield is lacking in physical presence and creativity. Along with 99.9% of this forum. However, in order to address the perceived problem of a lack of goals he signs another striker (albeit a very good one) and a number 10 type player. It smacks to me of sticking another coat of gloss paint over a rotten window frame and thinking it will solve the problem. There was clearly no issue with available funds this summer but Ferguson spent diddly on the massive elephant in the room (insert Anderson joke here). Why only he knows but it's as baffling as £#%&!.

And no I'm not a spoilt @#%&! and I respect massively what he's done for us over the decades but he's got this one wrong.

i agree. what gets me is, if he thinks the players he's got are up to it then why doesn't he play anderson every week? why have we had cleverley on the bench the last two games? why didn't pogba get more of a look-in? either trust them and pick them consistently or £#%&! them off and get somebody else in.

Originally Posted by borsuk

i agree. what gets me is, if he thinks the players he's got are up to it then why doesn't he play anderson every week? why have we had cleverley on the bench the last two games? why didn't pogba get more of a look-in? either trust them and pick them consistently or £#%&! them off and get somebody else in.

you and alan are not that far apart in your thinking

Originally Posted by Gypsum Fantastic

all we need now is a 'what's wrong with the world?' thread and we can close all the others.

magic

whisper it, but I think Cleverley got a knock for England

we needed creativity in the midfield so said everyone. and we signed Kagawa. don't see the problem there.

we needed full-back cover for Evra and we needed a top class striker because of the black-balling of berbatov and both were signed.

we also signed powelll and now apparently have fletcher back in contention.


the cyclical nature of football sees to it that the opposition react to what the top sides are doing and then the top sides quickly adapt and move forward again. By the end of this season I expect United will have sussed this pressing lark out (against most sides) and be able to stop themselves wasting so much energy being turned round repeatedly. To make this progression easier though they will have to start scaring the shit out of opponents again by taking more of their chances and making more of the great situations they are so wasteful with.

Originally Posted by irk

magic

Originally Posted by Tumescent Throb

To make this progression easier though they will have to start scaring the shit out of opponents again by taking more of their chances and making more of the great situations they are so wasteful with.

word.....would obviously help if Hernandez got some new contact lenses and Welbeck got his first competitive goal in five months

Originally Posted by borsuk

that's not an answer to the question i asked...

i think the criticism is ridiculously ott, but there are shortcomings. it's not a coaching issue imo, it's a lack of a player or two in the middle of the field. if anderson had developed the way he was supposed to and if fletcher was healthy we'd be ok, but anderson's a fat £#%&! and fletcher's a mess. that's the problem imo. maybe fergie should have £#%&!ed one or both off but he's stuck with them, right or wrong, and unless/until one or both starts playing to their potential we'll have problems in the middle of the field.

So do you think Ferguson knows the midfield's shit and doesn't care or that he doesn't even know it's shit?

Originally Posted by atticusgrinch

So do you think Ferguson knows the midfield's shit and doesn't care or that he doesn't even know it's shit?

it's not shit. it's just not as good as it should be. it's not that the players we've got aren't capable of it, it's that they haven't done it/don't do it consistently.

i think he's been extraordinarily patient - too patient - with anderson, hargreaves, fletcher and carrick over the last few years, for different reasons, where he'd have been better to have let a couple go and bring in somebody else.

not the first time fergie's been overly loyal to players. he's often characterised as a manager who cuts players loose brutally when it's time; i think he tends more the other way, he keeps players on too long quite often (keane, neville, park, berbatov etc).

Originally Posted by borsuk

it's not shit. it's just not as good as it should be. it's not that the players we've got aren't capable of it, it's that they haven't done it/don't do it consistently.

i think he's been extraordinarily patient - too patient - with anderson, hargreaves, fletcher and carrick over the last few years, for different reasons, where he'd have been better to have let a couple go and bring in somebody else.

not the first time fergie's been overly loyal to players. he's often characterised as a manager who cuts players loose brutally when it's time; i think he tends more the other way, he keeps players on too long quite often (keane, neville, park, berbatov etc).

mmm maybe. Certainly the most palatable explanation. Not exactly great for the team though is it?

If it's really a case of the Glazers saying "you've got enough midfielders" and Ferguson wanting to give them a chance then yes... I don't agree but i can see it and probably understand it.