Barcelona 2011 vs AC Milan 1990 - By Jonathan Wilson

Originally Posted by taff

saw him going on about that the other day. what a bell. think he's a gooner actually

Probably. Why else would he want to bang on about five-yard passes?

Originally Posted by Baron_van_Marlon

Who said they haven't won the silverware? Closing in a hat-trick of titles, won the CL, the Club World Cup, Spanish Cup (& in the final again tomorrow) & the Super Cup ffs Apparently that's not enough in three seasons...

Milan dominated the early '90s, Utd the turn of the century, this time belongs to Barca. It wont last. Nothing does. But all credit to them.

They've won one Champion's League. 2006 doesn't count as that was a different side, but this current side, the supposed greatest club side ever have won one Champion's League, and there's the argument of whether they should have even been in the final that year.

The Dream Team in the 90s won four titles on the spin, plus a European Cup. And who gives a £#%&! about the Club World Cup and Super Cup anyway? If we're brutally honest, greatness comes from European Cups and league titles, the rest don't really mean as much, and in that sense this current Barca side have still got to win a couple more trophies to be regarded as the best club side ever. I'm not saying they won't do it, but to rank them above everyone else at this stage is a bit premature IMHO. If they win the Champion's League this season then that will be a big step, but it won't be easy for them as we're still in the tournament tbh Obertan.

And I wouldn't say we 'dominated' the turn of the century either. We only won one Champion's League whereas Real Madrid won three around that time. If Barca fail to win anymore European Cups with this current side then I think they will have under-achieved.

He's always come across to me as an Arsenal fan too. He was recently going on about how Walcott should have gone to the world cup. Despite Walcott being utter dog shit in every game Capello played him in during the run up to it.

Err...ok.

Originally Posted by Coracao

I think the competition atm is pretty poor across europe. We're in the top 2-3 in Europe, and this isn't a great United side by any stretch of the imagination.

Something that needs to be considered in these types of arguments. It's ok saying Barcelona are setting all kinds of records in Spain, but their competition is £#%&! for the most part.

Yeah, I agree.

Go back ten to fifteen years ago and the quality of competition across Europe was ridiculously high. Bayern, Real Madrid, United and Juventus all had superb sides, then there was always extremely strong competition from clubs like Ajax, Dynamo Kiev and other clubs from the big leagues like Barcelona, Valencia, Borussia Dortmund and a handful of Italian clubs. Its not the same today.

And you're last point about the domestic competition in Spain is important as well. Barca piss most of their league games at a canter, but away from home in Europe they have found it a lot harder. They are no doubt a truly brilliant side, but some of the hype around them can be a bit excessive IMO.

Originally Posted by Neo

Yeah, I agree.

Go back ten to fifteen years ago and the quality of competition across Europe was ridiculously high. Bayern, Real Madrid, United and Juventus all had superb sides, then there was always extremely strong competition from clubs like Ajax, Dynamo Kiev and other clubs from the big leagues like Barcelona, Valencia, Borussia Dortmund and a handful of Italian clubs. Its not the same today.

And you're last point about the domestic competition in Spain is important as well. Barca piss most of their league games at a canter, but away from home in Europe they have found it a lot harder. They are no doubt a truly brilliant side, but some of the hype around them can be a bit excessive IMO.

yep. the champions league has been reduced to pretty much an annual competition involving 8 or so clubs which saunter through the group stages and then play each other, with one or two exceptions, for a place in the semis. there's the odd exception (schalke this year) but it's a sham of a competition, as was intended.

The Spanish league doesn't provide a great test from top to bottom as seen by the fact that Barcelona have Won27, Drawn4 and Lost 1 of their 32 games, scoring 86 and conceding 17 in the process. Even though it could be argued that Barcelona are just that good and they do play some glorious football and have some of the greatest players in the world playing for them, it's arguably in the Champions League where Barcelona's greatness should be proven or disproven.
Since United won the trophy in 2008, and Pep Guardiola took over at the Nou Camp, United and Barcelona have a similar overall record in the Champions League.
Manchester United's is P33 W20 D10 L3 with a Final, Quarter Final appearances to add to their Semi-Final appearance this year.
Barcelona's is P37 W21 D11 L5 with a Championship, and a semi-final appearance to add to their Semi-Final slot this time around.
In terms of ratios, Manchester United's is definitely superior.

When in the security of the Nou Camp, there is no denying Guardoila's Barcelona has a tremendous quality, although not infallible.
They have played 24 home games, winning 19, drawing 3 and losing 2.

Surely it is when the tests are greater that 'History's Greatest Side' must shine? For me that would be away from home in the Champions League, and in the knock-out stages.

Guardiola's Barcelona's away record is P18 W6 D9 L3
In a similar period Manchester United's is P16 W11 D4 L1

Including home knock-out games and finals it is
FCB - P27 W14 D10 L3
MUFC - P24 W17 D5 L2

Manchester United's is clearly the superior record, which could just mean Ferguson has developed the knack of getting the best out of a team and negotiating tricky ties.

No-one is saying Manchester United have been the superior team in this time. Barcelona's home record in the same time is superior P18 W14 D2 L2 as opposed to Manchester United's P16 W9 D6 L1 although it's not too dissimilar.

The simple fact is Barcelona play some great football and are hugely entertaining to watch. They are also fallible as shown by not having the greatest record in the biggest games. The most ridiculous part of it all is when people hail a side the Greatest Ever when they haven't even been together for 3 full seasons and haven't won all before them at the highest level is comical. Between 2007/08-08/09, Manchester United were only an FA Cup short of matching Barcelona's trophy haul in 2008/09-09/10.

By the end of this season we will know more...

Not convinced this Barcelona side are actually that better than the Barca side of the early nineties.

A lot of the hot air vented in championing this Barcleona side are by the same people who think Wenger's some kind of footballing guru and Arsenal elevate the beauty of the game to some higher level that us philistines are incapable of appreciating !

Football's a beatifully simple game. You win the game by scoring more than you concede. Everything else that takes part should be a means to that end. Now, it doesn't mean that there can't be a beauty in that process, but the ultimate objective cannot be brushed aside.

AND... Barca lost because they had to get the coach to Milan !! :shakehead:

..I could understand the gripe if they were playing Spartak Moscow, but an afternoon in a first class air conditioned coach speeding along the Cote D'Azur is not my idea of hardship.. £#%&! it...Franco Baresi would've walked it !
.

Originally Posted by Fountz

Not convinced this Barcelona side are actually that better than the Barca side of the early nineties.

A lot of the hot air vented in championing this Barcleona side are by the same people who think Wenger's some kind of footballing guru and Arsenal elevate the beauty of the game to some higher level that us philistines are incapable of appreciating !

Football's a beatifully simple game. You win the game by scoring more than you concede. Everything else that takes part should be a means to that end. Now, it doesn't mean that there can't be a beauty in that process, but the ultimate objective cannot be brushed aside.

AND... Inter lost because they had to get the coach to Milan !! :shakehead:

..I could understand the gripe if they were playing Spartak Moscow, but an afternoon in a first class air conditioned coach speeding along the Cote D'Azur is not my idea of hardship.. £#%&! it...Franco Baresi would've walked it !
.

You sound like your dad. If he was also a prat.

Originally Posted by Fountz

Not convinced this Barcelona side are actually that better than the Barca side of the early nineties.

A lot of the hot air vented in championing this Barcleona side are by the same people who think Wenger's some kind of footballing guru and Arsenal elevate the beauty of the game to some higher level that us philistines are incapable of appreciating !

Football's a beatifully simple game. You win the game by scoring more than you concede. Everything else that takes part should be a means to that end. Now, it doesn't mean that there can't be a beauty in that process, but the ultimate objective cannot be brushed aside.

AND... Inter lost because they had to get the coach to Milan !! :shakehead:

..I could understand the gripe if they were playing Spartak Moscow, but an afternoon in a first class air conditioned coach speeding along the Cote D'Azur is not my idea of hardship.. £#%&! it...Franco Baresi would've walked it !
.

Barca?

Originally Posted by dunk

Barca?

Yeah, sorry, Barca.





[SIZE="1"]original rant amended.

Originally Posted by Coracao

He's always come across to me as an Arsenal fan too. He was recently going on about how Walcott should have gone to the world cup. Despite Walcott being utter dog shit in every game Capello played him in during the run up to it.

Err...ok.

He supports Sunderland. FACT.

Originally Posted by andyroo

O hai dere Barry Glendenning

love bazza, tbh. you can tell he despises them both

Originally Posted by Fountz

Not convinced this Barcelona side are actually that better than the Barca side of the early nineties.

A lot of the hot air vented in championing this Barcleona side are by the same people who think Wenger's some kind of footballing guru and Arsenal elevate the beauty of the game to some higher level that us philistines are incapable of appreciating !

Football's a beatifully simple game. You win the game by scoring more than you concede. Everything else that takes part should be a means to that end. Now, it doesn't mean that there can't be a beauty in that process, but the ultimate objective cannot be brushed aside.

AND... Barca lost because they had to get the coach to Milan !! :shakehead:

..I could understand the gripe if they were playing Spartak Moscow, but an afternoon in a first class air conditioned coach speeding along the Cote D'Azur is not my idea of hardship.. £#%&! it...Franco Baresi would've walked it !
.

It was actually a 14-hour coach trip. I think there's every chance it had an effect.

Originally Posted by johnfuego

He supports Sunderland. FACT.

Jonathan Wilson? Correct.

Unfortunately for you Rafa, we weren't talking about him

embarrassing confession: I never knew ancelotti was in that team. or not at least the same ancelotti. him with the eyebrow. now starting to get a vague memory back of him as a player.

Originally Posted by carlosartorial

Throb and ???

Argentina

Originally Posted by shenwen

embarrassing confession: I never knew ancelotti was in that team. or not at least the same ancelotti. him with the eyebrow. now starting to get a vague memory back of him as a player.

He was a class player tbf.

He did the dirty work in midfield.

Scored a cracker in Milan's 5-0 demolition of Real Madrid.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PeTfRNK0X7U

Originally Posted by S/Side.Red

It was actually a 14-hour coach trip. I think there's every chance it had an effect.

Just over 9hrs actually..

http://www.theaa.com/route-planner/index.jsp

..and that's from the AA routeplanner which is very conservative in timings. I drive to the Adriatic Coast of Italy every summer (1300 miles ), the roads are fantastic and it shouldn't be an issue.

Just over half a day to get there, whilst the poor little Lambs have a sleep in the back.

Pathetic excuse. They were simply out hustled by Mourinho.

Originally Posted by borsuk

yep. the champions league has been reduced to pretty much an annual competition involving 8 or so clubs which saunter through the group stages and then play each other, with one or two exceptions, for a place in the semis. there's the odd exception (schalke this year) but it's a sham of a competition, as was intended.

actually that's not a fair representation of the change, if it is intended as a comparison with the old european cup

for example, there have only been 7 different countries represented in the 18 CL finals, but there were only 11 represented in the previous 18 EC finals.

there have been 12 different winners of the CL, just as there were 12 different winners in the previous 18 EC competitions.

and those winners represent 7 countries, whereas 8 countries were represented in those previous 18.

the main difference is that whilst only 17 different teams have made a CL final, 22 different sides made it to at least one of the previous 18 finals (although these included SS Malmo and FC Bruges, of course)

on closer inspection stats on those previous 18 competitions are distorted by the the inclusion of real madrid amongst the runners-up only (after all, they are by far and away the most successful team in the history of the competition), and particularly by the ban on english sides (an english team had made it to 9 of the 11 finals directly before the ban). during the ban there was a brief period where eastern european sides had some success. this period above all distorts the overall pattern of success in the european cup, whatever its format.