Antony

Originally Posted by BigRonManager

I'm no fan of our management, but put yourself in their shoes. You hire a manager, you want to support him, and he tells you he wants x player. What it takes is what it takes, and you'll remember Ajax were very reluctant to sell.

So at that point it's a binary choice right? If you can afford it, you either do it or you don't, either way you're £#%&!ed if it doesn't work out, but I don't think anyone really wanted either Murtagh or Arnold making player assessments ahead of your actual manager - especially since he was supposed to know the kid.

Absolutely not, if only based on all the players that LVG, Jose and Ole wanted. Why did it all suddenly change when ETH came in?

I suspect it was a case of ETH saying go for Antony then, somehow, we ended up paying about £50m over the odds. In fact i'm sure I read somewhere that that's exactly what happened, he was valued about £30m ish then Ajax didn't want to sell for that much, so we slap £80m down.

Whatever happened, it's £#%&!ing bonkers and the whole point of having proper structure above the manager is so somewhere along the way someone has the good sense to put a ceiling on what we play for any given player.


ETH makes plenty of baffling decisions to these eyes but I think saying "oh he worked with Antony so it's entirely his fault we paid £80m for him" is a very easy stick to beat him with for his detractors. It quite simply should not have got to that stage.

If you're ETH, you want the player and the club says it can get him, you're not going to care about the cost because that shouldn't be in the managers remit. Reckon Klopp gave a £#%&! about how much they paid for Nunez, or Guardiola with Kalvin Phillips?


We all seem to be stuck with this idea of a Fergie like deity who trains and coaches the players, tactics, scouts players, decides how much to pay etc etc. That's not how top clubs are run, and we've been in the ditch for well over a decade precisely because the glazers thought every manager would be like Fergie and able to work miracles and do the job of 10 men.

Originally Posted by pedr0

equally, it's not the managers responsibility to say, I want this player but he's only worth X so don't pay more than that.

it's ten hags fault he's at the club, it's not his fault he cost £80m or is paid £200k per week

So who judges that then? and bear in mind we have the benefit of hindsight.

Do you really want John Murtagh telling Erik ten Hag, sorry he's not worth it? What if Antony had been Mo Salah quality and went to Bayern?

The point is they're £#%&!ed either way. Either they're the idiots that paid 3 times (10x?) what Antony was worth, or they're the @#%&!s that don't support the manager and we have Louie van Gaal levels of excuse making.

Originally Posted by BigRonManager

So who judges that then? and bear in mind we have the benefit of hindsight.

Do you really want John Murtagh telling Erik ten Hag, sorry he's not worth it? What if Antony had been Mo Salah quality and went to Bayern?

The point is they're £#%&!ed either way. Either they're the idiots that paid 3 times (10x?) what Antony was worth, or they're the @#%&!s that don't support the manager and we have Louie van Gaal levels of excuse making.

Exactly, no I don't, I want at least 1 if not a few people looking at players and assessing them properly. We could have sent Stevie Wonder to watch Antony play in the eredivisie and figured out he wasn't worth £40m, let alone double that

Originally Posted by Whip Hubley

Absolutely not, if only based on all the players that LVG, Jose and Ole wanted. Why did it all suddenly change when ETH came in?

I suspect it was a case of ETH saying go for Antony then, somehow, we ended up paying about £50m over the odds. In fact i'm sure I read somewhere that that's exactly what happened, he was valued about £30m ish then Ajax didn't want to sell for that much, so we slap £80m down.

Whatever happened, it's £#%&!ing bonkers and the whole point of having proper structure above the manager is so somewhere along the way someone has the good sense to put a ceiling on what we play for any given player.


ETH makes plenty of baffling decisions to these eyes but I think saying "oh he worked with Antony so it's entirely his fault we paid £80m for him" is a very easy stick to beat him with for his detractors. It quite simply should not have got to that stage.

If you're ETH, you want the player and the club says it can get him, you're not going to care about the cost because that shouldn't be in the managers remit. Reckon Klopp gave a £#%&! about how much they paid for Nunez, or Guardiola with Kalvin Phillips?


We all seem to be stuck with this idea of a Fergie like deity who trains and coaches the players, tactics, scouts players, decides how much to pay etc etc. That's not how top clubs are run, and we've been in the ditch for well over a decade precisely because the glazers thought every manager would be like Fergie and able to work miracles and do the job of 10 men.

Of course it's binary. You either do it or you don't. Because we may not have done it in other times, for other managers doesn't alter that fact.

The point is, if the player ends up being shit (like Antony) you then either become the mugs that overpay for players or the mugs who don't support the manager.

I’m on the ETH is to blame for Antony. The money spent is obviously mental - but it’s the having worked with such a limited player and thinking he would work in the prem at MUFC which shows insanely bad judgement. And then to play that player, who can’t use his right foot at all, on the right wing and thereby limit 60% of all opportunities to advance that wing because he has to £#%&!ing pull up and cut inside all the £#%&!ing time is a sacking offence in itself.

For the world to bemoan how few goals we score and how little service Hoijlund gets yet ETH still picks the player mostly responsible for our shortcomings is certifiable.

I hope we never see Antony in a United shirt again. But given the negligence in transfer fee and wages, he’ll be hanging round like a rotting shit for years.

Originally Posted by Whip Hubley

Exactly, no I don't, I want at least 1 if not a few people looking at players and assessing them properly. We could have sent Stevie Wonder to watch Antony play in the eredivisie and figured out he wasn't worth £40m, let alone double that

You've never seen him play for Ajax ....

Originally Posted by BigRonManager

So who judges that then? and bear in mind we have the benefit of hindsight.

Do you really want John Murtagh telling Erik ten Hag, sorry he's not worth it? What if Antony had been Mo Salah quality and went to Bayern?

The point is they're £#%&!ed either way. Either they're the idiots that paid 3 times (10x?) what Antony was worth, or they're the @#%&!s that don't support the manager and we have Louie van Gaal levels of excuse making.

No but I do want someone from the club to explain the nature of budgets and opportunity cost to any manager, we have to be better at walking away from deals which city have done throughout Pep's time. It's no good saying get me x player no matter what if you are then going to complain about other issues in the squad that you could have resolved by not blowing the budget.

It's not just on ETH but clubs at our level don't drop top dollar on players they hope will transform them, if you look at Klopp's signings the first few seasons you can see what a sane recruitment strategy looks like.

If ETH is to blame for Antony, then why wasn't Jose held accountable for pogba? Or LVG for Di Maria?

You can't have it both ways - either the manager is or is not responsible for every player that walks through the door.

Post Glazers it was the same with fergie - reckon he got all the players he wanted? Was he responsible for Bebe, Owen and Obertan?

Our structure - at least as it has been for a good while - means we were always at risk of overpaying for players as much as we've ended up with players we (or i should say the manager) didn't really want. Other clubs do it, we've just done it a lot more.

Tbf Woodward leaving meant there was no one to oversee player recruitment. Hopefully Big Jim can bring in someone of a similar quality to handle transfers.

Originally Posted by Whip Hubley

If ETH is to blame for Antony, then why wasn't Jose held accountable for pogba? Or LVG for Di Maria?

You can't have it both ways - either the manager is or is not responsible for every player that walks through the door.

Post Glazers it was the same with fergie - reckon he got all the players he wanted? Was he responsible for Bebe, Owen and Obertan?

Our structure - at least as it has been for a good while - means we were always at risk of overpaying for players as much as we've ended up with players we (or i should say the manager) didn't really want. Other clubs do it, we've just done it a lot more.

The problem is Antony was a player he signed from the club he just left so he’d been coaching him for a few years

That’s why it’s such a blackmark against him……that and sticking with him for so long

Originally Posted by Whip Hubley

If ETH is to blame for Antony, then why wasn't Jose held accountable for pogba? Or LVG for Di Maria?

You can't have it both ways - either the manager is or is not responsible for every player that walks through the door.

Post Glazers it was the same with fergie - reckon he got all the players he wanted? Was he responsible for Bebe, Owen and Obertan?

Our structure - at least as it has been for a good while - means we were always at risk of overpaying for players as much as we've ended up with players we (or i should say the manager) didn't really want. Other clubs do it, we've just done it a lot more.

they are unless you're a simpleton who blames every transfer that hasn't worked out on the Glazers.

Originally Posted by Whip Hubley

If ETH is to blame for Antony, then why wasn't Jose held accountable for pogba? Or LVG for Di Maria?

You can't have it both ways - either the manager is or is not responsible for every player that walks through the door.

Post Glazers it was the same with fergie - reckon he got all the players he wanted? Was he responsible for Bebe, Owen and Obertan?

Our structure - at least as it has been for a good while - means we were always at risk of overpaying for players as much as we've ended up with players we (or i should say the manager) didn't really want. Other clubs do it, we've just done it a lot more.

I did think Mourinho was responsible tbh. He also buys Lindelof and Bailly, then when it's obvious they're not good enough, starts whining about not getting another two. At what point is a club entitled to say 'how about trying to get a £#%&!ing game out of what we've given you first'?

I don't think ten Hag can be absolved for Antony's price either. I mean it's not as though the guy operates in a vacuum. I think it's highly unlikely that whoever signed off didn't have the discussion with him along the lines of it's vastly over-priced, what do you think? Is he worth it? He obviously said yes.

Originally Posted by ZiggyStardust

The problem is Antony was a player he signed from the club he just left so he’d been coaching him for a few years

That’s why it’s such a blackmark against him……that and sticking with him for so long

And there's that as well. And trust me, I hate anything that gives me reason to think that little shitbag Sancho had a point.

Originally Posted by BigRonManager

I did think Mourinho was responsible tbh. He also buys Lindelof and Bailly, then when it's obvious they're not good enough, starts whining about not getting another two. At what point is a club entitled to say 'how about trying to get a £#%&!ing game out of what we've given you first'?

I don't think ten Hag can be absolved for Antony's price either. I mean it's not as though the guy operates in a vacuum. I think it's highly unlikely that whoever signed off didn't have the discussion with him along the lines of it's vastly over-priced, what do you think? Is he worth it? He obviously said yes.

I love this idea that Ten Hag said "I want Antony for 30 million" ...........nothing for a month........"We've bought Antony for 80 million"

Ten hag:

Originally Posted by Bunker Buster

You've never seen him play for Ajax ....

No I haven't and couldn't really care less, although if he was brilliant can anyone tell me why he turned to absolute shite when he joined us?

Originally Posted by believe

they are unless you're a simpleton who blames every transfer that hasn't worked out on the Glazers.

Mad isn't it? I'll go a step further and say that where the blame goes is mostly dependent on whether you're 'in' or 'out' on that particular manager as well. The Glazers are just a handy deflection mechanism.

Like they've got a clue.

Originally Posted by believe

they are unless you're a simpleton who blames every transfer that hasn't worked out on the Glazers.

don't think i ever heard anyone slate LVG for Di Maria or Jose for Pogba tbh. I mean it's possible I just seem to remember people saying that pogba "wasn't Jose's signing" etc.


I certainly don't blame every failed transfer on the glazers, but I do blame the fact we have no checks, balances, or semblance of a proper structure on them.


Also, if managers are entirely to blame for the players they buy, given we've had 1 decent signing in a decade, are we just unlucky that we've had 4 permanent managers then that can't spot a player? does the blame then not lie with whoever appointed the managers?


We have the worst track record in the top flight for transfers in the last decade and it's not even close.

Originally Posted by Whip Hubley

No I haven't and couldn't really care less, although if he was brilliant can anyone tell me why he turned to absolute shite when he joined us?

Unable to make the jump to a superior league? He wouldn't be the first.

Originally Posted by Whip Hubley

don't think i ever heard anyone slate LVG for Di Maria or Jose for Pogba tbh. I mean it's possible I just seem to remember people saying that pogba "wasn't Jose's signing" etc.


I certainly don't blame every failed transfer on the glazers, but I do blame the fact we have no checks, balances, or semblance of a proper structure on them.


Also, if managers are entirely to blame for the players they buy, given we've had 1 decent signing in a decade, are we just unlucky that we've had 4 permanent managers then that can't spot a player? does the blame then not lie with whoever appointed the managers?


We have the worst track record in the top flight for transfers in the last decade and it's not even close.

Name me one player that was a bad signing...........

Originally Posted by believe

Name me one player that was a bad signing...........

Originally Posted by Whip Hubley

don't think i ever heard anyone slate LVG for Di Maria or Jose for Pogba tbh. I mean it's possible I just seem to remember people saying that pogba "wasn't Jose's signing" etc.

I absolutely did. It's part of Mourinho's MO, even going back to his Chelsea days, to take absolutely no responsibility for bad transfers. When all the shit was going on with PP I remember thinking 'well you £#%&!ing bought him - toxic #@&%!'. He also tried desperately to sign Shaw from Southampton then did nothing but slag him off while managing here, without one modicum of awareness of what that said about his judgement. I suppose Fred was a Woody signing too. Watched a lot of Shaktar footy did old Woody.


I certainly don't blame every failed transfer on the glazers, but I do blame the fact we have no checks, balances, or semblance of a proper structure on them.

Yep. I think they finally realised it too which is why they were probably delighted for JR to take over.


Also, if managers are entirely to blame for the players they buy, given we've had 1 decent signing in a decade, are we just unlucky that we've had 4 permanent managers then that can't spot a player? does the blame then not lie with whoever appointed the managers?

Again, yes. But just because you can blame one doesn't preclude having some left over for the other.


We have the worst track record in the top flight for transfers in the last decade and it's not even close.

Absolutely.

.