Worried about the debt at United ? What are YOU going to do about it?

Admirable sentiments borsuk and I wholeheartedly agree that the game needs to change..... The problem is that I've yet to see any workable solutions.

The 2 most common concepts seem to be:

a) Restrict debt levels - but as Abramovic has proved, it's relatively simple to write off debt as equity.

b) Restrict wages to a % of turnover - but that only fuels the status quo, ensuring the 'big' clubs maintain their position. If you take away the 'speculate to accumalate' principle you're denying a lot of clubs the chance to join the elite. The supporters of Burnley, Hull, Stoke etc have to believe (even in a small way) that one day they might join the 'elite'. It's what keeps them going but they know that the club will need to spend more than a healthy percentage of turnover on wages to do that.

Originally Posted by Zorg

Finally borsuk comes out of his shell and posts more than one sentence for a change.

Superb stuff.

more obvious, i'd have said. but it's just words on a screen if nobody responds with action. the problem, as ever, is getting individuals to take steps which, by themselves, have no chance of success but which, can contribute to a movement which you may never see.


even a small encouragement helps. what about starting a thread on here where anybody who does anything - writes an email, sends a letter, has a meeting - can publicise it and let others know. if people see others doing the same thing they will do more themselves, and it won't seem so pointless. and, of course, if responses are public then others can work on them, supporting each other.


we all love united and we all love football. surely we all agree it's something worth fighting for.

Originally Posted by crock

Admirable sentiments borsuk and I wholeheartedly agree that the game needs to change..... The problem is that I've yet to see any workable solutions.

The 2 most common concepts seem to be:

a) Restrict debt levels - but as Abramovic has proved, it's relatively simple to write off debt as equity.

b) Restrict wages to a % of turnover - but that only fuels the status quo, ensuring the 'big' clubs maintain their position. If you take away the 'speculate to accumalate' principle you're denying a lot of clubs the chance to join the elite. The supporters of Burnley, Hull, Stoke etc have to believe (even in a small way) that one day they might join the 'elite'. It's what keeps them going but they know that the club will need to spend more than a healthy percentage of turnover on wages to do that.

there are ways around this. a salary cap is one, more equitable redistribution of tv money is another. but the key is pressure for change. there may be no perfect solutions - there may be no good solutions - but there are still better and worse possibilities. and reform can always be improved if the will is there.

Originally Posted by borsuk

there are ways around this. a salary cap is one, more equitable redistribution of tv money is another. but the key is pressure for change. there may be no perfect solutions - there may be no good solutions - but there are still better and worse possibilities. and reform can always be improved if the will is there.

Agreed, the fact there doesn't appear to be any solutions now doesn't mean they can't be found.

Your mention of a salary cap reminds of a conversation I had with a senior Nike exec on a train some time ago. He told me that discussions were already ongoing with certain clubs to switch some cash from 'club' sponsorship to 'player' sponsorship to get round any salary caps that might be imposed in the future.

There will always be ways round these things but you're right, it doesn't mean we shouldn't try.

90% of us knew this is how it would unfold, and I have to say the events that are happening off the pitch now are more painful than anything I have seen or felt supporting Utd, loving this club, in over 30 years. It feels, quite simply, that this great club of ours, and every single one of us supporters, is getting raped. It gets printed in the papers. And the opposition are laughing (oh how they are laughing)...

In terms of what WE can do, I think Lord Borsuk of Borsukshire's post is really on the money. It makes a lot of sense.

In terms of direct action I would (personally) like to see someone organize a black day at old trafford. like a mock funeral. people could hand out black cards to hold up with instructions for 2 minutes of silence after kick off. It wouldn't cost a lot (relatively) to get thousands made up, and/or instructions to match going reds to wear all black to one game. The media would of course pick up on it, and at least it shows the world that as a collective, we are in real real pain...

Originally Posted by BarryX

90% of us knew this is how it would unfold, and I have to say the events that are happening off the pitch now are more painful than anything I have seen or felt supporting Utd, loving this club, in over 30 years. It feels, quite simply, that this great club of ours, and every single one of us supporters, is getting raped. It gets printed in the papers. And the opposition are laughing (oh how they are laughing)...

In terms of what WE can do, I think Lord Borsuk of Borsukshire's post is really on the money. It makes a lot of sense.

In terms of direct action I would (personally) like to see someone organize a black day at old trafford. like a mock funeral. people could hand out black cards to hold up with instructions for 2 minutes of silence after kick off. It wouldn't cost a lot (relatively) to get thousands made up, and/or instructions to match going reds to wear all black to one game. The media would of course pick up on it, and at least it shows the world that as a collective, we are in real real pain...

we had a black day at Cardiff in 2005 at the Cup Final.....didn't really work tbh

picket lines at burnley game stopping everyone going in, cause a shitload of trouble so attendace is right down for a few weeks

Originally Posted by Child of Darkness

the answer is depressingly simple .

1 Dont pay the man - Not one penny. watch it in the pub or go to FC

Only if you continue to fund him can he continue to leech the club dry.

If enough people did this he would have no revenue . The company (not the club) goes bankrupt - we the fans buy the company only if we the fans control the club as a one member one vote organisation.

Only As long as we the fans stick togethor and pool our resources will we have any power. We could have a central register of people who did not renew - onve the club is re born tose that gave up the ST get first choice on seats.

2 We picket warwick road, we flashmob the mega store . We bombard the newspapers, the radio and the TV.

There will be a tipping point when a movement like this has enough momentum that it becomes irrestible.

3 You have to be be prepared to sacrifice going to the match for a season or so tho. No revenue ='s no investors for the bond.

4 Remember 95% of UTDs revenue comes from the UK . Utd will be in desperate financial peril - it would take 5 years to re build the club - but £#%&! it we have been here before in 58 haven't we?


You the person reading this wont do owt tho will you????

too bitter a pill for people to swallow, even if correct.

of course, anything done now will be far worse than it would have been if this had been nipped in the bud before the takeover.

I don't think anyone needed to fail to renew or to boycott. all that was needed was the credible threat of a boycott and the banks would never have lent the glazers a penny. it would have cost nothing.

if the correct publicity had been given and a serious message explained (although there have always been some people who were simply to stupid to understand it), we could have had some kind of petition-type website that people could have signed up to stating that if (say) 40,000 season ticket holders were prepared to boycott, they too would boycott. until that figure was reached, no one would have risked anything. once the figure was reached, the conclusion could have been presented to the banks - they would have been faced with the reality that if they backed the takeover, they would lose their money. they would not have lent and everyone could have continued as normal. except the glazers would have been left with a 29% stake they had borrowed to accumulate.

now, doing something similar would have a different effect. the club is only worth anything with customers. the best that could be achieved would be for the banks to accept writing off some of their debt. the club would still need to be in debt. but it could be owned/controlled by fans and at least we'd know money wasn't being spirited into the pockets of scum behind everyone's backs.

the credible threat of a boycott being used as leverage to get rid of the current owners would be far less destructive than an actual boycott, bringing the club to its knees. on the other hand, taking a long-term view, making the club bankrupt and then coming in to pick up the pieces (probably backed by debt rather than fan/shareholder funds) would work. we know the support would be there and the club could be rebuilt over time, but it would probably be goodbye wayne, patrice, etc in the meantime as the glazers fought to fill the financial hole.

the best way to scupper the glazers is always going to be scaring the shit out of the banks. similar tactics would also prevent anyone in their right minds buying bonds to bail the @#%&!s out.

Originally Posted by crock

But it only became 'a blessing' for the Glazers because there was still 70k willing to cough up.

I can understand your point, even though I was one of those that chose the FC route but you can't blame some people for the apathy of others.

It broke my heart to walk away after 40 years but you can only do what you think right at the time and the simple truth is that too many thought it right to stay and line the Glazers pockets. That effectively ended it, not those 3,000+ that went to FC.

I can see both points and agonised over the decision I made but (even now) I can't see any evidence that everybody staying would have made a blind bit of difference anyway, the Glazers didn't give a shit what the fans thought, money is their only language.

people did not think it right to line the glazers' pockets. people struggled to know what to do, felt they did not understand the financial implications, thought the glazers must know what they are doing (they so do), weren't properly advised of their options.... in the end they were being shouted at from all sides and probably thought there was nothing effective they could do and it wasn't worth risking losing their season tickets for a futile gesture. I wouldn't be too harsh on anyone whatever their decision.

Originally Posted by crock

I think a bigger/longer boycott was the only thing we could have done that would have any effect. Money was the only thing that could have frightened the Glazers off.

The problem is that for all we were vocal with our protests and grafted our %@#$&!s off trying to conjure up more support for shareholders united etc, we were in a minority. My rhetorical question was more along the lines of could we have done more to help persuade the majority to fight (ie boycott). And could we (and I include myself here) have done more to support shareholders united long before the yanks were on the horizon, which would have given us more of a chance to fight it off.

A lot of people did sign up for a £20 a month or similar direct debit for shares at the time but it was all too late unfortunately. If all those people (and more) had been doing that from the time we became a plc, we wouldn't have been in that position.

fans would never have had enough money to buy the club with £20 a month donations. our power was/is as consumers, not shareholders. we can only become shareholders by making the value of the club what we can afford. which is not much.

Originally Posted by Child of Darkness

I do think keiths got a point - the only people capable of organising and effectively co-ordinating the plan I outlined are now running FC. Those that didn't walk (whether to Fc or the pub and the important thing was to walk) have simply got to decide what there breaking point will be .

Now however with the media behind the story would be a great time to have another opo at getting our club back from the greedy people . the opportunity has arisen once again - how will you the idividual react is the point of my thread.

Armchair is also sadly right. The sheep like majority thought the takeover wouldn't really affect them . Despite the well reasoned arguments they just thought sod it I'm still gonna go to the match. They funded unlce malc whether conciously or not not they still handed the money over.

The only way to get the club back is to near as damn it bankrupt it . That will hurt.

now would be a good time to do something. any time would be a good time. but we need to offer something less than self-destruction.

Originally Posted by borsuk

my tuppenceworth...


the supporters who care have little ability to influence the club in any way, unfortunately. this was shown very clearly during the takeover when united supporters - and, despite the failure, this is something to be proud of - did mobilise and oppose the takeover in ways that no other club has managed. for all the jibes about prawn cocktail sandwiches, ooters and all the rest of it we did more to fight that takeover than any other club has ever managed - a boycott, must, the phoenix fund, the setting up of fcum, direct action. it failed, but compare the way united supporters fought the takeover to the way all sorts of clubs have bent over and taken it up the arse (city numerous times, liverpool, chelsea, newcastle etc). of course, it's different when it's a sugar daddy putting cash in but even so i think as united supporters we did what we could.

but it failed. and the harsh truth is that there is nothing we can do which will not serve to hasten the very end which we fear. financial protests, if effective, would make the financial situation of the club even worse.

personally, i don't think there is a way to deal with this focusing on one club only. some kind of tacky short-term solution to the immediate problems might appear - i.e. somebody with an obscene amount of wealth might want to acquire the club as a toy - but imo the only way to deal with the issue longer-term is through regulation which affects all clubs. that's not as far-fetched as it might appear: there is quite a lot of pressure building for clubs to be more tightly regulated in terms of finances and debt, with the bundesliga especially active in trying to level the playing field and stop english clubs using debt to gain on-field advantages. uefa is similarly active.

what is needed imo is a broad approach which builds awareness and support for football reform which will affect all clubs. that means keeping the issue in the public eye (something united supporters are uniquely placed to do) by organised protests which cameras will pick up on: co-ordinated standing protests across the stadium, fans turning their backs on the pitch at the start of the game etc - anything that will keep the issue in the media. it mean united supporters backing ideas like platini's, not taking the easy route and slagging him off just for the sake of it. it means getting involved with groups like supporters direct, pressuring the all-party football group in the commons, pressuring the ministry of culture etc.

there is pressure building for sustainable models and stronger regulation, and there are alternative models to the english model of football speculation. that's the direction that united supporters should go in because action focusing on only our club will get nowhere.


btw, in answer to the original question, i joined shareholders united (vs the murdoch takeover) and was a member of must at the time of the glazer takeover, i paid into the phoenix fund, i supported fcum by being a member, despite living abroad and having no intention of going to a game, and i wrote as many letters and emails as i physically could at the time. but it was doomed to failure because no one club and remove itself from the system - united was a plc and that made it just another business.


if you want to do something, i recommend doing something about football as a whole. join supporters direct, read the all-party football group's report and start contributing to the pressure that exists to reform football. write to your mp. go and see him/her. write to your euro mp. go and see him/her - this is very important as i think the european parliament route is far more fruitful than westminster, because there is a solid constituency of euro mps from germany and other countries who are keen to reform the system.


and if you're thinking 'yeah, write letters, that'll help ' they you really are part of the problem. any reform - any reform - is impeded by the apathy of its proponents at least as much as by the entrenched positions and power of its opponents. you can only achieve these kinds of changes by doing what you can, even if it seems pointless, and trusting that your tiny effort will be replicated by millions of others.


imho.



http://www.ukpolitical.info/Finder.htm

http://www.europarl.org.uk/section/your-meps/your-meps

http://www.allpartyfootball.com/

http://www.supporters-direct.org/home.asp?cat=engwal

see... there are plenty of people with their hearts in the right place who aren't stupid. :0)

Originally Posted by £#%&! KFC

we had a black day at Cardiff in 2005 at the Cup Final.....didn't really work tbh

I thought I'd heard of it somewhere before ...

maybe a 'for sale' day instead

Originally Posted by crock

Yes, you're right and I've no problem with that. As Zorg said, the decision wasn't United or FC, it was stay or go. I respect the decisions everybody made at that time, either way.

The problem is, there is still a nagging part of me saying 'could we have done more'. I think we could, on both sides of the divide. A genuine show of strength with a boycott would (IMO) have had a major effect. I also think that to some extent, we allowed it become a 'USA' thing rather than focusing on the financials at the time. The vast majority of the media portrayed it as anti American ownership rather than anti-debt. I can only speak for myself but I couldn't really have given a shit if our new owners were from Mars (that's the nature of a plc) as long they had the cash and didn't expect the supporters to buy it for them.

It should have been presented as anti-capitalism. that was my stance at the time, and nothing that has happened since has made me wrong. anti-capitalism is not a sentiment that most of the people protesting about the glazers the loudest seemed or seem prepared to entertain though, sadly. and that is at the heart of the apathy towards the entire takeover imo. the FC movement for me was always mostly about rejecting the way the combination of football and capitalism had become such a raging beast. and remember, even now, after all the exposure this bond scheme is getting, people are still moaning that we can't sign xyz player for 120k a week etc.

Originally Posted by Child of Darkness

I do think keiths got a point - the only people capable of organising and effectively co-ordinating the plan I outlined are now running FC. Those that didn't walk (whether to Fc or the pub and the important thing was to walk) have simply got to decide what there breaking point will be .

Now however with the media behind the story would be a great time to have another opo at getting our club back from the greedy people . the opportunity has arisen once again - how will you the idividual react is the point of my thread.

Armchair is also sadly right. The sheep like majority thought the takeover wouldn't really affect them . Despite the well reasoned arguments they just thought sod it I'm still gonna go to the match. They funded unlce malc whether conciously or not not they still handed the money over.

The only way to get the club back is to near as damn it bankrupt it . That will hurt.

this post is confusing tbh. anybody who went to OT before the takeover, especially regulars i mean, have basically funded the glazers and that is a simple fact. united was in pretty good health and that's what attracted them. the idea that we would be getting the club back from the greedy people doesn't make any sense to me, because it wasn't ours in the first place in terms of ownership, and because it was already run by very very greedy people. and i just can't take seriously the idea that going to watch united on the tele is making any kind of positive step towards bankrupting the club or removing the glazer's revenue. watching united on subscription tele is the ultimate lazy complicity in the whole sorry mess that is the greed is good PL imo, and we are all guilty of it.

anyway, that said, are there any decent and reliable figures out there about how a reduction of say 10k on the gate receipts would affect things at OT? or maybe if attendances dropped off by 20k and ticket prices for those seats were discounted to keep the stadium fullish how would that affect match-day revenue?

I'll be doing £#%&! all. As others said I've got better things to worry about quite frankly.United will do just fine.

I'm going to log onto the internet, eat penguins and moan.

unless things fall off big time on the pitch i dont think it will matter two £#%&!s what anyone does.
a long as there is a fair ammount of on pitch sucess i'm affraid united will be stuck with the glazers .

have you been watching what has been going on on the pitch recently?

Originally Posted by Horst_ Bucholst

unless things fall off big time on the pitch i dont think it will matter two £#%&!s what anyone does.
a long as there is a fair ammount of on pitch sucess i'm affraid united will be stuck with the glazers .

you could be in charge of writing the letters.

Originally Posted by believe

you could be in charge of writing the letters.

couldn't write a letter to save myself

Originally Posted by carlosartorial

Shamelessly self-promote myself as a conduit that can open lines of communication between the club and supporters, pausing only to get a few plastic banners made to hang over the Stretford End Tier 2.

like it!

i was thinking of maybe convincing united fans to buy shares and pool them together. show a bit of militant intent, may start a coalition but fail to back a march.

Originally Posted by borsuk

my tuppenceworth...


the supporters who care have little ability to influence the club in any way, unfortunately. this was shown very clearly during the takeover when united supporters - and, despite the failure, this is something to be proud of - did mobilise and oppose the takeover in ways that no other club has managed. for all the jibes about prawn cocktail sandwiches, ooters and all the rest of it we did more to fight that takeover than any other club has ever managed - a boycott, must, the phoenix fund, the setting up of fcum, direct action. it failed, but compare the way united supporters fought the takeover to the way all sorts of clubs have bent over and taken it up the arse (city numerous times, liverpool, chelsea, newcastle etc). of course, it's different when it's a sugar daddy putting cash in but even so i think as united supporters we did what we could.

but it failed. and the harsh truth is that there is nothing we can do which will not serve to hasten the very end which we fear. financial protests, if effective, would make the financial situation of the club even worse.

personally, i don't think there is a way to deal with this focusing on one club only. some kind of tacky short-term solution to the immediate problems might appear - i.e. somebody with an obscene amount of wealth might want to acquire the club as a toy - but imo the only way to deal with the issue longer-term is through regulation which affects all clubs. that's not as far-fetched as it might appear: there is quite a lot of pressure building for clubs to be more tightly regulated in terms of finances and debt, with the bundesliga especially active in trying to level the playing field and stop english clubs using debt to gain on-field advantages. uefa is similarly active.

what is needed imo is a broad approach which builds awareness and support for football reform which will affect all clubs. that means keeping the issue in the public eye (something united supporters are uniquely placed to do) by organised protests which cameras will pick up on: co-ordinated standing protests across the stadium, fans turning their backs on the pitch at the start of the game etc - anything that will keep the issue in the media. it mean united supporters backing ideas like platini's, not taking the easy route and slagging him off just for the sake of it. it means getting involved with groups like supporters direct, pressuring the all-party football group in the commons, pressuring the ministry of culture etc.

there is pressure building for sustainable models and stronger regulation, and there are alternative models to the english model of football speculation. that's the direction that united supporters should go in because action focusing on only our club will get nowhere.


btw, in answer to the original question, i joined shareholders united (vs the murdoch takeover) and was a member of must at the time of the glazer takeover, i paid into the phoenix fund, i supported fcum by being a member, despite living abroad and having no intention of going to a game, and i wrote as many letters and emails as i physically could at the time. but it was doomed to failure because no one club and remove itself from the system - united was a plc and that made it just another business.


if you want to do something, i recommend doing something about football as a whole. join supporters direct, read the all-party football group's report and start contributing to the pressure that exists to reform football. write to your mp. go and see him/her. write to your euro mp. go and see him/her - this is very important as i think the european parliament route is far more fruitful than westminster, because there is a solid constituency of euro mps from germany and other countries who are keen to reform the system.


and if you're thinking 'yeah, write letters, that'll help ' they you really are part of the problem. any reform - any reform - is impeded by the apathy of its proponents at least as much as by the entrenched positions and power of its opponents. you can only achieve these kinds of changes by doing what you can, even if it seems pointless, and trusting that your tiny effort will be replicated by millions of others.


imho.



http://www.ukpolitical.info/Finder.htm

http://www.europarl.org.uk/section/your-meps/your-meps

http://www.allpartyfootball.com/

http://www.supporters-direct.org/home.asp?cat=engwal

Brilliant stuff. You not being in Manchester is our loss.

Originally Posted by redwhiteandblack

Brilliant stuff. You not being in Manchester is our loss.

Agreed. Top post borsuk.

Originally Posted by wonky no

like it!

i was thinking of maybe convincing united fans to buy shares and pool them together. show a bit of militant intent, may start a coalition but fail to back a march.