Alonso for Vidic - Tin hat on.

Originally Posted by LaPaz

Doubt the boys in Miami, OK WPB would let him do that...

Do we have a phone banking facility I wonder?

Originally Posted by antonin jablonsky

Do we have a phone banking facility I wonder?

No, tinternet banking it's cheaper..

Originally Posted by LaPaz

No, tinternet banking it's cheaper..

Bet we're on a 28k dial up modem.

Originally Posted by Erics Collar

Robbie Fowler what a @#%&!, threw a wobbler the other day didnt he, refused to be on the bench for some australian team

He is, the point I was making however was that players sometimes are worldclass by the time they are 20-21 and past it by 25-26. I'm not saying he is a bad player by any stretch but the reverance and almost mysticism with which he is talked about for me makes him vastly overrated.

Originally Posted by BryanRobson'sLiver

He is, the point I was making however was that players sometimes are worldclass by the time they are 20-21 and past it by 25-26. I'm not saying he is a bad player by any stretch but the reverance and almost mysticism with which he is talked about for me makes him vastly overrated.

kaka isnt overrated imo,
fowlers scoring record speaks for itself but for whatever reasons his career burnt out early i dont think he was ever world class though - great premier league player but shite at international level

Originally Posted by Erics Collar

kaka isnt overrated imo,
fowlers scoring record speaks for itself but for whatever reasons his career burnt out early i dont think he was ever world class though - great premier league player but shite at international level

Kaka was bought for umpteen million and hasn't been any better than players Madrid already had. He is a good solid player for me but nothing THAT special and so with the hubbub about him that makes him overrated but I suppose its all opinion innit.

Originally Posted by BryanRobson'sLiver

He is, the point I was making however was that players sometimes are worldclass by the time they are 20-21 and past it by 25-26. I'm not saying he is a bad player by any stretch but the reverance and almost mysticism with which he is talked about for me makes him vastly overrated.

I'd have to respectfully disagree... in the modern game where statistics, specifically tangible ones such as goals & assists, are used as reference points to determine how good a player is a huge amount of the game is marginalised. Kaka is one of the players - ironically along with Alonso (he only had 5 direct assists in his career at Liverpool) - where those statistics tell only a tiny fraction of the story. Kaka, playing in a role at Milan that dictated the tempo, the gaps he made from his running with the ball, the focus he demands from the opposition who would be set-up to stop him carrying the ball through the middle of the pitch etc... it allows a good team to exploit the expectation they have of his impact. You almost use him as a sacraficial pawn... & if the oppo fall for it & give him too much attention, you blindside them with the other multitude of great players these sides have. Or, they don't fall for, it try to take them on, and get £#%&!ed by him. Like we did when he ran straight through us & his superbly economical & direct use of the ball meant we got nowhere near him over 180mins.

The Pro Evo generation are incapable of seeing past statistics imo, Kaka, along with Zidane for example who never had a great scoring record nor huge pile of assists to his name, are & were more than those stats & are revered as such. A small proportion also infiltrates opinions because they were such elegant players... different discussion though.

Originally Posted by BryanRobson'sLiver

Kaka was bought for umpteen million and hasn't been any better than players Madrid already had. He is a good solid player for me but nothing THAT special and so with the hubbub about him that makes him overrated but I suppose its all opinion innit.

Originally Posted by Erics Collar

kaka isnt overrated imo,
fowlers scoring record speaks for itself but for whatever reasons his career burnt out early i dont think he was ever world class though - great premier league player but shite at international level

Fowler's career was decimated by injury. Couple of broken legs and a hip injury that finished him off as a force before he was 28, he was a shadow of his former self from that point on.

Then there is his alleged extra curricular activities and the affect they had on his game.

Kaka is just having a lull after 5 or 6 exceptional seasons, whilst settling into a new club and style of play.

Originally Posted by Baron_van_Marlon

I'd have to respectfully disagree... in the modern game where statistics, specifically tangible ones such as goals & assists, are used as reference points to determine how good a player is a huge amount of the game is marginalised. Kaka is one of the players - ironically along with Alonso (he only had 5 direct assists in his career at Liverpool) - where those statistics tell only a tiny fraction of the story. Kaka, playing in a role at Milan that dictated the tempo, the gaps he made from his running with the ball, the focus he demands from the opposition who would be set-up to stop him carrying the ball through the middle of the pitch etc... it allows a good team to exploit the expectation they have of his impact. You almost use him as a sacraficial pawn... & if the oppo fall for it & give him too much attention, you blindside them with the other multitude of great players these sides have. Or, they don't fall for, it try to take them on, and get £#%&!ed by him. Like we did when he ran straight through us & his superbly economical & direct use of the ball meant we got nowhere near him over 180mins.

The Pro Evo generation are incapable of seeing past statistics imo, Kaka, along with Zidane for example who never had a great scoring record nor huge pile of assists to his name, are & were more than those stats & are revered as such. A small proportion also infiltrates opinions because they were such elegant players... different discussion though.

Nice.

Originally Posted by Baron_van_Marlon

I'd have to respectfully disagree... in the modern game where statistics, specifically tangible ones such as goals & assists, are used as reference points to determine how good a player is a huge amount of the game is marginalised. Kaka is one of the players - ironically along with Alonso (he only had 5 direct assists in his career at Liverpool) - where those statistics tell only a tiny fraction of the story. Kaka, playing in a role at Milan that dictated the tempo, the gaps he made from his running with the ball, the focus he demands from the opposition who would be set-up to stop him carrying the ball through the middle of the pitch etc... it allows a good team to exploit the expectation they have of his impact. You almost use him as a sacraficial pawn... & if the oppo fall for it & give him too much attention, you blindside them with the other multitude of great players these sides have. Or, they don't fall for, it try to take them on, and get £#%&!ed by him. Like we did when he ran straight through us & his superbly economical & direct use of the ball meant we got nowhere near him over 180mins.

The Pro Evo generation are incapable of seeing past statistics imo, Kaka, along with Zidane for example who never had a great scoring record nor huge pile of assists to his name, are & were more than those stats & are revered as such. A small proportion also infiltrates opinions because they were such elegant players... different discussion though.

Well put but I have to disagree with that, what you are saying is all true but in his last 2 seasons at Milan all of the qualities you are praising were less and less prevalent. His form fluctuated and whilst he played well in many games in just as many his impact was nowhere near as great as it was previously. He did indeed run us ragged but just look back at how long ago that was. You will note that in my argument have I pulled up wikipedia stats to try and back it up as I am not going on facts and figures but on his general impact on games.

He is still a high quality player but he was not the footballer he was 4 years ago and where as he may well regain that form and prove me wrong (in fact I hope he does as even though he's at madrid he was always a great player to watch) I think that the length of time that he hasn't consistantly been wonderful substanciates my argument that at present he is up there in the most overrated players in Europe.

He's quite a different player to Carrick imo, and for the way we play Carrick is by far the better fit. When he's on form.

Originally Posted by BryanRobson'sLiver

Kaka was bought for umpteen million and hasn't been any better than players Madrid already had. He is a good solid player for me but nothing THAT special and so with the hubbub about him that makes him overrated but I suppose its all opinion innit.

World player of the year Kaka? Won a CL on his own.

Yeah, alright big boy.

Originally Posted by BryanRobson'sLiver

Well put but I have to disagree with that, what you are saying is all true but in his last 2 seasons at Milan all of the qualities you are praising were less and less prevalent. His form fluctuated and whilst he played well in many games in just as many his impact was nowhere near as great as it was previously. He did indeed run us ragged but just look back at how long ago that was. You will note that in my argument have I pulled up wikipedia stats to try and back it up as I am not going on facts and figures but on his general impact on games.

He is still a high quality player but he was not the footballer he was 4 years ago and where as he may well regain that form and prove me wrong (in fact I hope he does as even though he's at madrid he was always a great player to watch) I think that the length of time that he hasn't consistantly been wonderful substanciates my argument that at present he is up there in the most overrated players in Europe.

There are plenty of sailiant points in there, although plenty of other factors missing (such as his Milan team mates being older than George Burns, the down turn in Italian football as a whole etc) which would lessen his impact. He's continued to be Brazils leading light, Milans, and although not exactly setting the world alight at Madrid it's an impossible ask given he's being outshone by Ronnie. A player that is almost the antithesis of Kaka's unselfish approach to the game & his team mates. It's not to say he's a spent force, or that he's hiding, but there's a recognition in Ronnies attributes that I imagine (although probably impossible to confirm) means he's quite happy to continue to be an integral part of the side as opposed to the focal point. Ronnie's nature, appetite for the limelight & (borderline ego-maniacal) responsibility for winning means he'll take a while to adapt after dominating the Italian game during his formative years.

At 27, having achieved what he has, and in a side that has spent £200m+ it's a relatively safe bet he'll continue to be in the top 5 players in world football imo. He doesn't look like his physical attributes will hold him back, he's still got the ability to stroll past players, I think the neccessity to link with those around him & get the wavelength will see him flourish again in the near future. Not least this coming World Cup where he has a superb understanding with Luis Fabiano.

Originally Posted by antonin jablonsky

Could Benzema play on the left side of a forward 3?

Yes nqat, I assume that's where Fergs was planning to play him

Originally Posted by dodger

Yes nqat, I assume that's where Fergs was planning to play him

It must be, he seems commited to 4-3-3 now, certainly in big games so £35 million for another striker would make little sense. What we'd really need as i said is an attacking midfielder.

Lampard is the perfect player in a 4-3-3

Originally Posted by Baron_van_Marlon

There are plenty of sailiant points in there, although plenty of other factors missing (such as his Milan team mates being older than George Burns, the down turn in Italian football as a whole etc) which would lessen his impact. He's continued to be Brazils leading light, Milans, and although not exactly setting the world alight at Madrid it's an impossible ask given he's being outshone by Ronnie. A player that is almost the antithesis of Kaka's unselfish approach to the game & his team mates. It's not to say he's a spent force, or that he's hiding, but there's a recognition in Ronnies attributes that I imagine (although probably impossible to confirm) means he's quite happy to continue to be an integral part of the side as opposed to the focal point. Ronnie's nature, appetite for the limelight & (borderline ego-maniacal) responsibility for winning means he'll take a while to adapt after dominating the Italian game during his formative years.

At 27, having achieved what he has, and in a side that has spent £200m+ it's a relatively safe bet he'll continue to be in the top 5 players in world football imo. He doesn't look like his physical attributes will hold him back, he's still got the ability to stroll past players, I think the neccessity to link with those around him & get the wavelength will see him flourish again in the near future. Not least this coming World Cup where he has a superb understanding with Luis Fabiano.

In the top 5 players in the world according to FIFA rankings probably but I am yet to see him at Madrid impose himself on a result in the same way that Ronaldo, Messi, Silva, Aguero and even Canales have done. I agree that this world cup will be interestingk that Kaka's performances will probbaly lean towards one of our opinions and against the other, should be good.

Originally Posted by Fatboy Shrek

World player of the year Kaka? Won a CL on his own.

Yeah, alright big boy.

Keep up at the back

Originally Posted by antonin jablonsky

It must be, he seems commited to 4-3-3 now, certainly in big games so £35 million for another striker would make little sense. What we'd really need as i said is an attacking midfielder.

imo he would have played rooney left and benzema through the middle in a 4-3-3 but agree we need an attacking midfielder and a left winger also

Originally Posted by Erics Collar

imo he would have played rooney left and benzema through the middle in a 4-3-3 but agree we need an attacking midfielder and a left winger also

Well i'd hope he wouldn't now.