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Unread 21-03-2007, 11:56 PM
Camel
 
Default A Question About Carlos

there were reports that he was taking all training sessions etc.

is this still the case?

who do we attribute our tactics to this season?

i know what i think but there are a couple of gaps i'd like filled before i expose myself as a total moron.
 
Unread 22-03-2007, 12:02 AM
Lazarus
 
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I go by empirical evidence over rumours and to my eyes Carlos is still important but there has been a clear change in Fergie over the last year and a half. He is much quicker to leave the stands and orchestrate from the touchline. His passion and purple headed monster rages at officials are back with gusto.

It would appear to me that there is less delegating and Carlos is getting on with being one of the best coaches in the world (and taking the training sessions with the odd intervention from Fergie ...as it was with Kiddo and Mclaren) without there being a fuzzy line between who is making the managerial decisions.
 
Unread 22-03-2007, 12:12 AM
Camel
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lazarus
I go by empirical evidence over rumours and to my eyes Carlos is still important but there has been a clear change in Fergie over the last year and a half. He is much quicker to leave the stands and orchestrate from the touchline. His passion and purple headed monster rages at officials are back with gusto.

It would appear to me that there is less delegating and Carlos is getting on with being one of the best coaches in the world (and taking the training sessions with the odd intervention from Fergie ...as it was with Kiddo and Mclaren) without there being a fuzzy line between who is making the managerial decisions.
thanks, laz. i agree totally, it doesn't really matter when we're wining
 
Unread 22-03-2007, 12:14 AM
MUFC One Love
 
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His contracts up this summer.
 
Unread 22-03-2007, 12:20 AM
Lazarus
 
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Camel
thanks, laz. i agree totally, it doesn't really matter when we're wining
No..but it's an interesting question because things do appear to be different.

The other night I actually felt a real swelling of pride towards Carlos when he was arguing with the horrible Boro bitters. I felt 'this guy is on our side and feels something'. This is the first time I've ever felt such positivity toward him.

I honestly think he was scapegoated for other factors (and by me as much as anyone)

I think there isn't one clear ,absolute answer and it's a combination of factors.
 
Unread 22-03-2007, 01:17 AM
Grimson
 
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Great post Laz.

I know at a lot of clubs, the #2 takes training, but the boss still dictates gameday tactics. Most tactical ideas are worked out in preseason anyway, and in-season training is more about maintaining fitness and touch.
 
Unread 22-03-2007, 01:20 AM
Camel
 
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lazarus
No..but it's an interesting question because things do appear to be different.

The other night I actually felt a real swelling of pride towards Carlos when he was arguing with the horrible Boro bitters. I felt 'this guy is on our side and feels something'. This is the first time I've ever felt such positivity toward him.

I honestly think he was scapegoated for other factors (and by me as much as anyone)

I think there isn't one clear ,absolute answer and it's a combination of factors.
of course it's an interesting question
and john o'shea is an excellent box to box midfielder, too.
 
Unread 22-03-2007, 01:29 AM
Luffy
 
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I think there may have been games where Carlos' credentials as next Utd manager were tested, but I think those are out the door.

Tbh he was trying to get us playing 4-3-3 before Mourinho did it at Chelsea but it didnt work with the players we have. If you think about it we're one of the few successful teams in the world who actually play with real wingers.

Madrid, Barca, Milan, Juve, Arsenal, Liverpool, Inter, Brazil, Argentina and so on.

None of them famous for wingers and dont really have any quality out and out wingers to speak of. Interesting that. They are so essential to the way we play at Utd. what Carlos tried to do was quite normal football tactics which were reasonable and made sense outside of Utd and I imagine Fergie agreed - after all our usual approach was not doing well so it was natural to try and fix our problems, we played around with different things as you do.

But for some reason it just wasnt compatible. I blame Ruud personally cos even in a 4-4-2 he was largely an obstacle for our own team to overcome.

Now he's gone, I think we CAN play 4-3-3 when we want to, and 4-5-1 DOES work. and Rooney can play on the left if needed. All the ideas they played with can work if you have the right players and I think they're on the way to having that.

there was definately a period where fergie got off his fluffy pillow and put his foot down, abolished his loyalty to everyone, made people earn their places and went back to 4-4-2. ruud was dropped, keano was dropped etc.
 
Unread 22-03-2007, 01:45 AM
Tropical
 
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lazarus
The other night I actually felt a real swelling of pride towards Carlos when he was arguing with the horrible Boro bitters. I felt 'this guy is on our side and feels something'. This is the first time I've ever felt such positivity toward him.
Snap. Ditto. Etc.




Quote:
I honestly think he was scapegoated for other factors (and by me as much as anyone)
That, I'm not sure of. Unless by other factors you mean he was given too much rope. The Peter Principle in action: "In a hierarchy every employee tends to rise to his level of incompetence."


Plausible reports (and quotes from the players) suggested that he was running the football side of things on a day-to-day basis, and also being allowed to dictate the overall style of play - particularly the notorious "system" we were so shit at, and which made us so dreadful to watch; and his self-professed strategy of winning 1-0, which we so seldom did while actually trying to do so. Ultimately (as I've always said to the "keep the king, sack his evil advisor" proponents) responsibility for that lies at Fergie's door for slacking off and allowing it to happen; so I suppose you could say Queiroz was scapegoated to that extent.


It may be that he's been demoted to his level of competence again: coaching, rather than the big-picture stuff. And if so, all well and good.
 
Unread 22-03-2007, 02:14 AM
Lazarus
 
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tropical
Snap. Ditto. Etc.




That, I'm not sure of. Unless by other factors you mean he was given too much rope. The Peter Principle in action: "In a hierarchy every employee tends to rise to his level of incompetence."


Plausible reports (and quotes from the players) suggested that he was running the football side of things on a day-to-day basis, and also being allowed to dictate the overall style of play - particularly the notorious "system" we were so shit at, and which made us so dreadful to watch; and his self-professed strategy of winning 1-0, which we so seldom did while actually trying to do so. Ultimately (as I've always said to the "keep the king, sack his evil advisor" proponents) responsibility for that lies at Fergie's door for slacking off and allowing it to happen; so I suppose you could say Queiroz was scapegoated to that extent.


It may be that he's been demoted to his level of competence again: coaching, rather than the big-picture stuff. And if so, all well and good.
Well yes and no. I wouldn't want to argue against the bulk of what you're saying because it's pretty much what I would surmise is the truth.

I read Giggs' biography and it is clear that ,at one stage,Carlos was in charge of virtually everything and deputising as manger. Fergie was hardly ever seen and it was only Carlos we saw. Somewhere along the line - and in private- it is almost certain that they have re-established a different working structure

We shouldn't forget that Carlos' record as a coach is exemplary - he is regarded as being the architect of Portugal's golden generation of Figo and Rui Costa et al. The only time his credentials have been seriously questioned is when he has been a manger - he has had some notable failures.

I think Fergie may have been guilty of entrusting Carlos with too much beyond the realms of what he's good at - although accounts from Kiddo and Maclaren would indicate they had a very large say in everything..with the final word going to Fergie. However,I don't think he did this out of laziness but out of the profound admiration he has for him after his work in the successful 2003 league campaign.

At the moment they appear to be working very well. Despite the terrible times of 4-5-1/4-3-3 we now have a side that can play sublime football on the good days and defend in a disciplined,effective manner when trying to play our signature swashbuckling football isn't working.

I'm almost tempted to say that a synthesis of Fergie's attacking,blood and guts football and Carlos' effective,more cautious approach could eventually produce a team for any occasion.

A team capable of dismembering the lesser sides and having the tactical nous,discipline,patience and ball retention to match the toughest sides in the league and Europe. The kind of side that could one day soon go that tiny step farther in Europe than we have hitherto.
 
Unread 22-03-2007, 02:21 AM
Serenity Now
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tropical
Plausible reports (and quotes from the players) suggested that he was running the football side of things on a day-to-day basis, and also being allowed to dictate the overall style of play - particularly the notorious "system" we were so shit at, and which made us so dreadful to watch; and his self-professed strategy of winning 1-0, which we so seldom did while actually trying to do so. Ultimately (as I've always said to the "keep the king, sack his evil advisor" proponents) responsibility for that lies at Fergie's door for slacking off and allowing it to happen; so I suppose you could say Queiroz was scapegoated to that extent.


It may be that he's been demoted to his level of competence again: coaching, rather than the big-picture stuff. And if so, all well and good.
I'm no expert on his coaching style and he may well be responsible for some of the problems with the football we've played in recent years, but I'd be surprised if he isn't pretty good as his job. My feeling has always been that it was more of a personnel issue than a coaching one, I think we sacrificed a great deal in order to accommodate an aging Keane and, to a lesser extent, Ruud in our team.

Fergie had an (understandable) sense of loyalty to Roy, and so delayed getting rid of him until his staying at the club was no longer feasible. Scholes stamina was never great and Keane's fitness was clearly not what it was, so playing the traditional 4-4-2 with those two in the heart of the midfield would not have worked. Throw the attack minded Ronaldo in for Beckham (whose worth ethic was second to none) and sticking a dogs body like Fletcher into the team seems more understandable.

I also think that having Roy in the squad also made signing a high quality central midfielder very difficult. I'm certain he wouldn't have been happy to play second fiddle to anyone and the financial issues (his wages) wouldn't have helped either.

Add the problems with Ruud's mobility and desire towards the end of his stay at United into the mix, and I think laying the blame at the feet of Queiroz is at the very least a little harsh.
 
Unread 22-03-2007, 03:59 AM
Crumps
 
Thumbs up

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luffy
I think there may have been games where Carlos' credentials as next Utd manager were tested, but I think those are out the door.

Tbh he was trying to get us playing 4-3-3 before Mourinho did it at Chelsea but it didnt work with the players we have. If you think about it we're one of the few successful teams in the world who actually play with real wingers.

Madrid, Barca, Milan, Juve, Arsenal, Liverpool, Inter, Brazil, Argentina and so on.

None of them famous for wingers and dont really have any quality out and out wingers to speak of. Interesting that. They are so essential to the way we play at Utd. what Carlos tried to do was quite normal football tactics which were reasonable and made sense outside of Utd and I imagine Fergie agreed - after all our usual approach was not doing well so it was natural to try and fix our problems, we played around with different things as you do.

But for some reason it just wasnt compatible. I blame Ruud personally cos even in a 4-4-2 he was largely an obstacle for our own team to overcome.

Now he's gone, I think we CAN play 4-3-3 when we want to, and 4-5-1 DOES work. and Rooney can play on the left if needed. All the ideas they played with can work if you have the right players and I think they're on the way to having that.

there was definately a period where fergie got off his fluffy pillow and put his foot down, abolished his loyalty to everyone, made people earn their places and went back to 4-4-2. ruud was dropped, keano was dropped etc.
Agree with you RE the 4-5-1. Although I'd prefer Giggs staying on the left and Rooney in the middle if needs be, I have said a few time before that Ronney's natural role is more akin to Scholes'. The 4-5-1 with Ruud either worked very well or not at all as it depended solely on Ruud's performance in that particular match as it was all about supplying him with chances. Now Giggs and Scholes are playing well, Carrick has arrived, Rooney and Ronnie are maturing and Louis is a faster and stronger alternative up-front, 4-5-1 is a totally different proposition. Now it's an actual formation as opposed to something that was meant to save Keano's legs.
 
Unread 22-03-2007, 09:33 AM
Tumescent Throb
 
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Maybe United are trying to move away from the classic English model to a more continental approach to running the team in the hope of smoothing the way for whichever coach takes on the role post-Fergie?

As for the way United play, clearly there's been a concerted effort to hone a few more sophisticated strings to their bow over the last few seasons. This has as often as not led to the team failing to get the the joy it should have from the players available. Who can forget 2001/02 when a serious of pathetic individual errors blighted the entire campaign, for instance.

But make no mistake, the Real Madrid games of 2000 and 2003 are all the evidence anyone should need that United could be all too easily exposed by the best - and not least because they were short of options to change the pattern of a game while a match was in progress.

Ferguson is a master football tactician - only a fool would say otherwise, given his success. He has also had the benefit of a series of brilliant #2s (arf). Presumably, it is Ferguson himself who interviews these #2s for the job?

It is great to see Ferguson prowling the touchline once again. It is also interesting to hear Carlos Quieroz being interviewed on the BBC - he talks about the game very well.

The point Lazarus makes about the combination of Fergie and Carlos giving us the team for all occasions is the best on the thread for me.

Above all, what most people seem to forget is the players themselves. It has been fantastic watching the team grow up before our eyes over the last year and a bit.
 
Unread 22-03-2007, 10:49 AM
Tropical
 
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tumescent Throb
Ferguson is a master football tactician - only a fool would say otherwise, given his success. He has also had the benefit of a series of brilliant #2s (arf).
(Really. Be my guest. )


I would say Fergie is a master motivator, and that this has been key (although not the only key) to his success. Hence the perception - as articulated by Fergie himself - of his United sides doing things the hard way. When we've been really up against it, it hasn't been tactics that have seen us through - it's been phenomenal efforts from both individuals and teams. And as manager, Fergie can take credit for that. By the same token, that's been one of the most dispiriting aspects of recent seasons: United's spinelessness under pressure.



If we accomplish anything this season, we'll be able to look at the Fulham and Liverpool away games as examples of that - games where we weren't much good, and certainly weren't tactically superior, but still held out and got something through sheer force of will (and you can count the European Cup final in '99 as one of those, too.)
 
Unread 22-03-2007, 11:11 AM
borsuk
 
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that every team goes through transitions, and i see the last few years as that rather than some imagined change in style or philosophy. whether or not it could have been handled better is debatable, but there was always going to come a time when the team had to be dismantled again and rebuilt. perhaps fergie/carlos could have done it better - though i can't think of any manager who has done this so often or so well as fergie in his career - but it was always going to cost us. add the unique situation re abramovich and kenyon (whose theft of our transfer goals is a scandal) and i think it's fair to say that the lapse of the last few years is understandable and the fault of neither fergie nor carlos.

my anger at fergie starts and ends with his comments and behaviour re the takeover. here i think he let himself and us down. i don't think he could have stopped the takeover, but he could and should have behaved with more honesty and dignity. as far as the football side goes i think we have been blessed with an absolutely unique manager who has done more than enough to deserve our respect and our patience.

sometimes the comments about the management - both fergie and carlos - beggar belief, as though we would win everything if only fergie/carlos stopped tinkering/£#%&!ing up/being defensive etc. to blame him (his team)for a downturn when the side is being rebuilt should be beneath us, tbh.
 
Unread 22-03-2007, 12:42 PM
Tumescent Throb
 
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tropical
(Really. Be my guest. )

I would say Fergie is a master motivator, and that this has been key (although not the only key) to his success. Hence the perception - as articulated by Fergie himself - of his United sides doing things the hard way. When we've been really up against it, it hasn't been tactics that have seen us through - it's been phenomenal efforts from both individuals and teams. And as manager, Fergie can take credit for that. By the same token, that's been one of the most dispiriting aspects of recent seasons: United's spinelessness under pressure.

If we accomplish anything this season, we'll be able to look at the Fulham and Liverpool away games as examples of that - games where we weren't much good, and certainly weren't tactically superior, but still held out and got something through sheer force of will (and you can count the European Cup final in '99 as one of those, too.)

Ferguson is a master football tactician, as his success proves beyond any doubt. And yes he is also a master motivator.

Of course it's true that we've nicked a few results down the years. It's also true that Bayern managed to break against us at Camp Nou three or four times after Sheringham came on for Blomqvist.

His critics seize on this game as evidence of tactical failings. Then again, his critics have said, and still continue to say, £#%&! all about United's progress up to that point in that year's CL from a tactical pov. As if there were no tactics laid out in any game specifically designed to exploit the opposition's weaknesses. Ridiculous.

In reality, of course, we were ok tactically at Camp Nou 26/5/99, if slightly hamstrung - Beckham did very well in centre mid, for example, but was missed on the right. Still, it wasn't Ferguson who got Keane and Scholes suspended. At 1-0 up, Bayern did nothing much bar sit there until we risked. And although it nearly cost us, ultimately both sides got their just deserts imo.

As Ferguson himself said after that game: You can talk all you like about tactics and all the rest of it... but they never give up, and that's what won it for us.
 
Unread 22-03-2007, 12:51 PM
Crumps
 
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by borsuk
that every team goes through transitions, and i see the last few years as that rather than some imagined change in style or philosophy. whether or not it could have been handled better is debatable, but there was always going to come a time when the team had to be dismantled again and rebuilt. perhaps fergie/carlos could have done it better - though i can't think of any manager who has done this so often or so well as fergie in his career - but it was always going to cost us. add the unique situation re abramovich and kenyon (whose theft of our transfer goals is a scandal) and i think it's fair to say that the lapse of the last few years is understandable and the fault of neither fergie nor carlos.

my anger at fergie starts and ends with his comments and behaviour re the takeover. here i think he let himself and us down. i don't think he could have stopped the takeover, but he could and should have behaved with more honesty and dignity. as far as the football side goes i think we have been blessed with an absolutely unique manager who has done more than enough to deserve our respect and our patience.

sometimes the comments about the management - both fergie and carlos - beggar belief, as though we would win everything if only fergie/carlos stopped tinkering/£#%&!ing up/being defensive etc. to blame him (his team)for a downturn when the side is being rebuilt should be beneath us, tbh.
Not team can stay at the top and sustain the success and performance that we had from 92 onwards. Not team in the modern game has and I doubt they ever will. We are pretty lucky that Fergie managed to keep us there or there abouts in the last 3-4 years tbh. Look how badly Milan suffered in the 90s after their dominance and look at the state of Madrid now. Normally after sustained success there is a huge downturn in the team's fortunes but we haven't left the top 3 clubs in the league for 16 years and have done well in domestic cup competitions when league success deserted us.
 
Unread 22-03-2007, 01:18 PM
The Watcher
 
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tumescent Throb
Ferguson is a master football tactician, as his success proves beyond any doubt. And yes he is also a master motivator.

Of course it's true that we've nicked a few results down the years. It's also true that Bayern managed to break against us at Camp Nou three or four times after Sheringham came on for Blomqvist.

His critics seize on this game as evidence of tactical failings. Then again, his critics have said, and still continue to say, £#%&! all about United's progress up to that point in that year's CL from a tactical pov. As if there were no tactics laid out in any game specifically designed to exploit the opposition's weaknesses. Ridiculous.

In reality, of course, we were ok tactically at Camp Nou 26/5/99, if slightly hamstrung - Beckham did very well in centre mid, for example, but was missed on the right. Still, it wasn't Ferguson who got Keane and Scholes suspended. At 1-0 up, Bayern did nothing much bar sit there until we risked. And although it nearly cost us, ultimately both sides got their just deserts imo.

As Ferguson himself said after that game: You can talk all you like about tactics and all the rest of it... but they never give up, and that's what won it for us.
Most of the clowns who bang on about Fergie having no idea about tactics are journalist who, as is apparent from most of their articles, know £#%&! all about football. @#%&!s like martin samuel (fat bastard) and all those other £#%&!ers who appear on Sky with Jimmy Hill, really are a joke. Have achieved £#%&! all in football, yet think they are in a position of authority to criticize the most successful manager in the history of English football. £#%&!ing laughable!
 
Unread 22-03-2007, 09:59 PM
Lazarus
 
Thumbs up

Quote:
Originally Posted by borsuk
sometimes the comments about the management - both fergie and carlos - beggar belief, as though we would win everything if only fergie/carlos stopped tinkering/£#%&!ing up/being defensive etc. to blame him (his team)for a downturn when the side is being rebuilt should be beneath us, tbh.
I could not agree more. Honestly. I completely and unequivocally share this view and feel comforted to see someone else give it voice.
 
Unread 23-03-2007, 11:50 AM
Tropical
 
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by borsuk
sometimes the comments about the management - both fergie and carlos - beggar belief, as though we would win everything if only fergie/carlos stopped tinkering/£#%&!ing up/being defensive etc. to blame him (his team)for a downturn when the side is being rebuilt should be beneath us, tbh.
I'm surprised at you, old bean. That's misrepresentative, and really just a (typically measured, granted) rehash of the weary and discredited "spoilt bastards" argument.



Speaking for myself - although I'm sure it applies to many others of similar views - my criticisms were *never* that we weren't winning things. On the footballing side (where we've seen an improvement; the non-footballing stuff will be back to haunt us, you can be sure of that), it could be summarised thus, and I stand by it:



- Fergie was at fault, not for failing to find exact replacements for brilliant and unique players, which is self-evidently impossible, but either for not replacing them at all, despite having more than enough time, or for attempting to replace them with players so shockingly sub-par you had to wonder if there were other reasons for signing them. It's all very well talking about rebuilding, but the process was delayed - unnecessarily - by years.



- Fergie was at fault for allowing the team we did have - which, while not ideal, was still potentially a strong one - to routinely play with dull, cautious and ineffective timidity; even against the least impressive of opposition, which provided said opposition with great comfort and encouragement. And Chelsea were not unassailable; even with the gaps in our squad, we still we had the players to challenge for trophies, whether or not we won them. It's not naive to suggest that, simply and most importantly, we could and should have played better football. The idea that our frequently supine attitude and godawful football was principally down to rebuilding *does* sound a touch naive, though



- In short, Fergie made very poor use of both the club's resources, and the squad it already had. Nobody suggested that the club's fortunes cannot go up and down; the issue was always making the most of what was available.



Whether you agree with them or not, these criticisms were (and are) made in good faith and backed up with good reasons. It's dispiriting to see you, of all people, drag up the canard that the Fergie-outs are merely fickle and bitter about the lack of trophies. If anyone in this camp ever expressed such a sentiment - rather than had it wrongly attributed to them - it's beyond me to recall it.
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