I reckon Wenger jacks it in at the end of the season.

Originally Posted by Baron_van_Marlon

But when you put it against turnover, it's fine as far as I can tell. Outlays in transfer fees negate a lot of it compared to how something like 19 other clubs have spent more since 2006.

I'm adamant in however many years it takes Arsenal to lose their debt, they'll be very dangerous as they've willfully abused Wenger's ability to work on a budget not comparable to any other side in Europe for the last 5 seasons & achieve the relative success they have (financially of course, not trophies).

AndersRed has - as usual - some interesting figures regarding their takeover & the wage inflation that is happening there at the moment.

very vague figures on wage inflation and very patchy guesswork on EV/EBITDA multiples. the one thing that is for sure is that the major shareholders of arsenal have made a few quid out of kroenke reaching 63% or whatever it is.

Originally Posted by Baron_van_Marlon

But when you put it against turnover, it's fine as far as I can tell. Outlays in transfer fees negate a lot of it compared to how something like 19 other clubs have spent more since 2006.

I'm adamant in however many years it takes Arsenal to lose their debt, they'll be very dangerous as they've willfully abused Wenger's ability to work on a budget not comparable to any other side in Europe for the last 5 seasons & achieve the relative success they have (financially of course, not trophies).

AndersRed has - as usual - some interesting figures regarding their takeover & the wage inflation that is happening there at the moment.

well, i don't think net transfers proves anything much. a free transfer doesn't figure but the player might be earning a huge salary, possibly because they let their contract run down. united's net spend is skewed by a huge influx from one transfer but that doesn't change the fact that we spend more on players (wages, bonues etc) than anybody but city and chelsea. arsenal are nothing like as frugal as they are painted, matching united's salary level until 2006 despite a far smaller turnover and only falling a little behind recently - in fact they may have caught up over the last year with a few expensive transfers coming in (arshavin especially). for a while they were also disguising their salary levels by assorted dodgy schemes, even paying a fine of £10m or something for it not so long ago.

Originally Posted by borsuk

well, i don't think net transfers proves anything much. a free transfer doesn't figure but the player might be earning a huge salary, possibly because they let their contract run down. united's net spend is skewed by a huge influx from one transfer but that doesn't change the fact that we spend more on players (wages, bonues etc) than anybody but city and chelsea. arsenal are nothing like as frugal as they are painted, matching united's salary level until 2006 despite a far smaller turnover and only falling a little behind recently - in fact they may have caught up over the last year with a few expensive transfers coming in (arshavin especially). for a while they were also disguising their salary levels by assorted dodgy schemes, even paying a fine of £10m or something for it not so long ago.

But wages on top of another £100m spent on players is significant. & they are £100m+ behind a lot of teams over the last 5 years.

I don't think it really matters whether they have or have not 'spent much', because either scenario reflects poorly on Wenger and his project.

If they have indeed spent, then what has it bought? Certainly not success. If not, then why not? I think the supporters trust has every right to ask these questions after 6 years, unless AW believes he should be the only manager in world football not to have to answer for his decisions at all. Thing is, I think that's exactly what he believes, and he's not going to like the alternative.

Truth is, since 1996 Arsenal are the 7th most successful club in the country after United, Chelsea, Liverpool, Spurs, Birmingham and Portsmouth. Assuming they don't win the league, after the cup final they will be 8th.

Anyone should have to answer for that.

Originally Posted by utd99

I don't think it really matters whether they have or have not 'spent much', because either scenario reflects poorly on Wenger and his project.

If they have indeed spent, then what has it bought? Certainly not success. If not, then why not? I think the supporters trust has every right to ask these questions after 6 years, unless AW believes he should be the only manager in world football not to have to answer for his decisions at all. Thing is, I think that's exactly what he believes, and he's not going to like the alternative.

Truth is, since 1996 Arsenal are the 7th most successful club in the country after United, Chelsea, Liverpool, Spurs, Birmingham and Portsmouth. Assuming they don't win the league, after the cup final they will be 8th.

Anyone should have to answer for that.

exactly. i hate it when people say how well wenger has done with no money. makes no sense because
a. he has money
b. he has won £#%&! all for (I hope) six years

Originally Posted by utd99

I don't think it really matters whether they have or have not 'spent much', because either scenario reflects poorly on Wenger and his project.

If they have indeed spent, then what has it bought? Certainly not success. If not, then why not? I think the supporters trust has every right to ask these questions after 6 years, unless AW believes he should be the only manager in world football not to have to answer for his decisions at all. Thing is, I think that's exactly what he believes, and he's not going to like the alternative.

Truth is, since [2006] Arsenal are the 7th most successful club in the country after United, Chelsea, Liverpool, Spurs, Birmingham and Portsmouth. Assuming they don't win the league, after the cup final they will be 8th.

Anyone should have to answer for that.

sort of true

but then again, arsenal are currently 6th in the Uefa co-efficient rankings.

United are top btw

Originally Posted by Tumescent Throb

sort of true

but then again, arsenal are currently 6th in the Uefa co-efficient rankings.

United are top btw

Liverpool are 5th.

Originally Posted by utd99

Liverpool are 5th.

they are

it's based on overall performance over 5 seasons, so arsenal's run to the final in 06 has dropped off

Originally Posted by Tumescent Throb

sort of true

but then again, arsenal are currently 6th in the Uefa co-efficient rankings.

United are top btw

Obviously the term 'success' can be gauged differently for different situations, for example Blackpool staying up would technically be a success.

For simplicity purposes however, I used it in reference to finishing first in any of the four major club competitions in which the Premier clubs compete, which, for a team widely considered in the top three in the land, is not unrealistic I think.

Originally Posted by utd99

Obviously the term 'success' can be gauged differently for different situations, for example Blackpool staying up would technically be a success.

For simplicity purposes however, I used it in reference to finishing first in any of the four major club competitions in which the Premier clubs compete, which, for a team widely considered in the top three in the land, is not unrealistic I think.

yeah i got that

i was just using a more realistic measure than saying Portsmouth are better than Arsenal because they won the FA Cup

Originally Posted by Tumescent Throb

yeah i got that

i was just using a more realistic measure than saying Portsmouth are better than Arsenal because they won the FA Cup

I never said they were better. I said they were more successful.

I would say achieving CL football and getting to the knock out stages just about every season is pretty successful.

Originally Posted by dunk

I would say achieving CL football and getting to the knock out stages just about every season is pretty successful.

Well I guess it's more successful than not making the CL and getting to the knockout stages every season.

What if it were us?

Originally Posted by dunk

I would say achieving CL football and getting to the knock out stages just about every season is pretty successful.

Exactly.

Arsenal are a club far more interested in money than silverware during the period in which they pay off their stadium. Winning a trophy by over extending themselves financially makes no sense. Wenger makes mistakes in his signings, but then who hasn't had a number of expensive flops over 15 years?

The only constant Arsenal give a £#%&! about is CL qualification & the millions that brings in.

Is there a definitive date for when their debt will be paid off ? Will Kroenke clear it a la Abramovich & give them £50m to spend ? I suspect that's highly unlikely, but at some point if they want to become a Utd / Bayern / Barca / Milan / Madrid they will need to have players with status & trophies. Success breeds success & all that.

As it stands, they are conservatively getting through the mire of debt & Wenger has done a great job in that respect, imo.

Originally Posted by Baron_van_Marlon

Whilst I heartily agree with Wenger being a £#%&!ing helmet, & lots of his buys not working out (regardless of wages) they are still outspent by about 3/4's of the league in the last 6 seasons since the move to the Emirates. I suspect very, very few managers, if any, would have been able to maintain a consistent progress into the knock out stages of the CL & top 4 on that budget. The Arsenal model was to get to the Emirates & then reap the reward in the long run. I suspect it's now seriously starting to take it's toll on Wenger with the lack of silverware - however the reason he's not been sacked is purely down to the fact they are now only 2nd to United in revenue off the back of the stadium move coupled with the vast amounts generated from their CL runs & thus extortionate season ticket prices & merchandise etc - once they clear their debt they will be £#%&!ing laughing.

I suspect that to be the case too, and Wenger is clearly the best man for the job of keeping the ship steady, hence the seemingly little pressure he's coming under from board level. If Arsenal progress to the kind of financial status they should, chances are they'll look back on this period and Wenger's achievements in keeping them in the top four as crucial. It must be demoralising for both him and the players to see those huge fees received for Adebayor, Toure, Hleb, Henry etc not fully reinvested in the squad, but he still manages to keep them relatively competitive and continues to bring in that essential Champions League revenue.

Originally Posted by S/Side.Red

I suspect that to be the case too, and Wenger is clearly the best man for the job of keeping the ship steady, hence the seemingly little pressure he's coming under from board level. If Arsenal progress to the kind of financial status they should, chances are they'll look back on this period and Wenger's achievements in keeping them in the top four as crucial. It must be demoralising for both him and the players to see those huge fees received for Adebayor, Toure, Hleb, Henry etc not fully reinvested in the squad, but he still manages to keep them relatively competitive and continues to bring in that essential Champions League revenue.

For how long though?

Fabregas won't be happy to stay around until the debt is cleared I imagine and, with other clubs catching up all the time, isnt it a bit of a risky game to play?

Originally Posted by Baron_van_Marlon

The only constant Arsenal give a £#%&! about is CL qualification & the millions that brings in.

I don't think that's true at all. In fact I can guarantee that's not all the supporters care about. Wenger has been fortunate that his fans' tolerance for a lack of silverware is greater than most (including us I think) but it's not infinite. And from the sound of his interview it's not all that Fabregas cares about either.

As an aside, I think we are getting caught up in the difference between being competitive and being successful.

Also, just to clarify, i have never once suggested he would, or should, be fired. I just think he looks like he's had enough.

Originally Posted by utd99

He has clearly lost the plot and now he's losing the support too. Let's face it, this will be 6 years without a trophy, and the trend at arsenal is not a good one. Fabregas is sorting himself yet another exit strategy and looks very disenchanted, Van Persie is injured half the year, Walcott has never matched his unrealistic expectations because he has a limited intelligence and Arshavin has completely gone to pot after a promising start.

Limited intelligence you say?

"We need to repay the fans. They pay a lot of money to go to the games. They go up and down the motorways - their cars probably blow up stuck in traffic - and we need to think about these people sometimes and push to the end because maybe we didn't that day."
Walcott's frank admission will set off alarm bells among some Arsenal supporters, particularly given the renewed threat their fiercest rivals posed.

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standa...low-at-lane.do

Originally Posted by silv

For how long though?

Fabregas won't be happy to stay around until the debt is cleared I imagine and, with other clubs catching up all the time, isnt it a bit of a risky game to play?

Definitely, but not only is that not Wenger's fault, but would they be better of with someone else in charge if those are the circumstances? I'm not so sure.