David Conn piece on United's finances

Originally Posted by armchair

I'd agree for the most part but you had to put in "sinking in it." I actually think the debt is almost irrelevant as United, if the Glazer's went, wouldn't die it would simply become the play thing of someone super-rich.

OT was never going to be turned into a carpark.

This is true.

However, I reckon the Glazers are likely to cash in on any and all United assets (you know who I mean) as they try to juggle debt interest repayments until some such super-rich entity stumps up.

Originally Posted by In 76 now this is true

When it comes to the Glazers, they dont just make funds from Utd, they have other business interests. You do wonder what exactly pays for what, with recent business interests sold by them.
Utd was valued at over £1.1 billion today, yet its only worthwhile having that value if either your going to refinance or you have a buyer willing to but at that price. The actual selling price should they ever sell will probably be a lot lower. They have maximised revenue streams since they took over, its just a pity the PLC werent as good at doing that, as the Glazers would never have been abel to come in and takeover.

The effect of transfer spending and what we have to spend from the Ronaldo sale wont be seen till the end of the window next August.
Fergie probably feels he has enough to get hrough this season, what with Lljic coming over in Jan. The key part comes when having to replace Scholes, Giggs and even VDS if Foster doesnt prove his worth, with another forward needed. We can all debate all day long on who we would bring in, but in reality there is not an outstanding player who we could go out and get.
Look at the world transfer market and taking Madrid and City out of it, its been quieter than its ever been, even Milan who received a lot for Kaka havent spent massively.

Lickspittle

Originally Posted by marlo

"2 years ago promises was all I heard, wait a minute, let me finish"

'2 years ago promises was all I heard out your moooouuuuuttthhhh'

Originally Posted by BryanRobson'sLiver

Lickspittle

Watch out, Acki'll be on to call you a shithouse if you don't watch it.

I've named my bike JPR.

Originally Posted by dunk

'2 years ago promises was all I heard out your moooouuuuuttthhhh'

someone on my wave length

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2x86tostIKE#t=01m13s

Oh great, the net spend argument again

Remind me never to waste 5 minutes reading a David Conn article again please


As for the Glazer takeover, hopefully its critics will eventually get round to criticising the £#%&!ing system that lent them the cash and the scum who work in that system.

Originally Posted by Tumescent Throb

As for the Glazer takeover, hopefully its critics will eventually get round to criticising the £#%&!ing system that lent them the cash and the scum who work in that system.

Yeah, because they've never done that have they.

Originally Posted by Zorg

Yeah, because they've never done that have they.

virtually none of the criticism of the takeover ever focuses on the financial system that gave it the green light

Originally Posted by dunk

'2 years ago promises was all I heard out your moooouuuuuttthhhh'

I prefer

"haters wanna hate
lovers wanna love
i don't even want
none of the above
I want to piss on you
drip drip drip"

Originally Posted by antonin jablonsky

Watch out, Acki'll be on to call you a shithouse if you don't watch it.

I've named my bike JPR.

Jablonsky's rouge pedalcycle? nah that would JRP.

Originally Posted by Sparky***

I prefer

"haters wanna hate
lovers wanna love
i don't even want
none of the above
I want to piss on you
drip drip drip"

Originally Posted by BryanRobson'sLiver

Jablonsky's rouge pedalcycle? nah that would JRP.

Originally Posted by Withers

Some of the loans were refinanced sometime in 2006 before the world economy collapsed due to dodgy loans as you put it.

They then tried to refinance the whole lot again in 2007 but were unable to do so and gave up.

Since then they have been able to repay the debts they are asked to repay. Luckily for them them but unluckily for United in the long term, in my opinion, they are not being asked to make all their interest payments but are allowed to let some of their interest roll up against the value of the club.

Think about it like a really big equity release mortgage.

Unless something drastic changes, such as a break up of TV rights or an opportunity to refinance, before 2013 then the problems will really start because they will no longer be able to roll up their interest but will have to pay it back.

The present profit levels would have no chance of doing so.

Four years ago they promised £25 million a year plus £25 million for a one off special purchase. Thats £125 million, we have spent £6 million.

Now we've done ok on that £6 million, but thats despite the Glazers not because of them.

Not sure I would be confident of Ferguson managing to be just as successful over the next 4 years with £6 million to spend if he gets asked to do so though.

Spot on

Originally Posted by In 76 now this is true

When it comes to the Glazers, they dont just make funds from Utd, they have other business interests. You do wonder what exactly pays for what, with recent business interests sold by them.
Utd was valued at over £1.1 billion today, yet its only worthwhile having that value if either your going to refinance or you have a buyer willing to but at that price. The actual selling price should they ever sell will probably be a lot lower. They have maximised revenue streams since they took over, its just a pity the PLC werent as good at doing that, as the Glazers would never have been abel to come in and takeover.

The effect of transfer spending and what we have to spend from the Ronaldo sale wont be seen till the end of the window next August.
Fergie probably feels he has enough to get hrough this season, what with Lljic coming over in Jan. The key part comes when having to replace Scholes, Giggs and even VDS if Foster doesnt prove his worth, with another forward needed. We can all debate all day long on who we would bring in, but in reality there is not an outstanding player who we could go out and get.
Look at the world transfer market and taking Madrid and City out of it, its been quieter than its ever been, even Milan who received a lot for Kaka havent spent massively.

£#%&! you Tufty, if it wasn't for selfish glory seeking @#%&!s like you, the Glazer's would be gone now.

BTW everyone except Tufty, things aren't as bad as people make out. If we were really 43 days away from administration, they'd have re-named Old Trafford The Emirates or something equally ridiculous.

I posted a thread a few years ago after I interviewed United's Financial Accountant, they were making good profits then, since then we've won the league 3 times, been to the EC Final twice,renegotiated the shirt sponsorship, got an increased TV deal and stung the fans massively with above inflation price hikes. The club aint skint, it's just that the Glazer's bought United for one thing and it wasn't the trophies.

Everyone who gives money to the Glazer's, don't complain when they get rid of Rooney. You can expect press briefings about falling out with Fergie, his wife wanting a move abroad or whatever they can do to get the fans to be glad to see the back of him. The club is being used as a cash cow by greedy Republican supporting Yanks and everyone just stood back and let it happen rather than miss a few games. Shame on you, especially you Tufty.

you're probably correct about the desperate measures if needed bit

but they'd be long gone before they could drag Rooney out of OT. unless he really does piss the management off, of course.

Hope you won't mind my small correction to what you said.

Originally Posted by Withers

Since then they have been able to pay the interest on the debts they are asked to pay

A minor difference but giving the impression debt is being repaid, when in reality only 2/3 of the interest is being paid and none of the capital ever gets paid back is a little misleading.

Originally Posted by Tumescent Throb

virtually none of the criticism of the takeover ever focuses on the financial system that gave it the green light

it is hardly the fault of the financial system. it is the fault of the football authorities and it is your fault for doing £#%&! all about it.

Originally Posted by Spiffy

Everyone who gives money to the Glazer's, don't complain when they get rid of Rooney. You can expect press briefings about falling out with Fergie, his wife wanting a move abroad or whatever they can do to get the fans to be glad to see the back of him. The club is being used as a cash cow by greedy Republican supporting Yanks and everyone just stood back and let it happen rather than miss a few games. Shame on you, especially you Tufty.

no one needed to miss a single game. the banks would not have lent if there had been a credible threat.


the glazers are scum and are sucking the life out of united. anyone who says different deserves a slow, painful death.

from elsewhere

Pretty much everything debt-related in there was superceded by the 2006 refinance. All the EBITDA targets and the threat of hedge-fund interference went out the window when the PIK lending was reduced from £275m to £138m.

The £138m grows to £205m this month, with the addition of interest and will grow to £597m by 2017 when redeemable.

Also in the refinance, the original £265m borrowed from JP Morgan (the senior debt) was increased to a maximum of £575m, repayable in tranches in 2013 (£75m), 2014 (£150m), 2015 (£150m) and 2016 (£150m). The increased borrowing was used to pay down the PIK debt and to pay fees and penalties for early repayment.

Originally, the senior debt was based on LIBOR + a risk premium ranging from 2% to 5%. Now, £450m has the rate fixed at 5%pa until December 2013.

Of the £575m, £50m is an unused overdraft facility, £150m is "unsecured" and £425m is secured on the assets and undertakings of Manchester United, despite the lending being in the name of Red Football Limited.

All this data can be found here;-

http://www.chriselkins.co.uk/files/...08/RFJV2008.pdf

in the Red Joint Venture Limited accounts for last year. See pages 34, 35 and 41 of the pdf (32,33,39 of the accounts).

So, just to summarise, United owes £520m it is paying interest on to the tune of about £30m a year and interest on £205m that is not paid, that is added to the loan at 14.25%pa. All of which has to be repaid by August 2017.

If you are interested in the takeover documentation, most of the stuff found its way onto the MUST site and I do have a copy of the original Rothschild offer document if that's any help.

75 milion due in 2013

150 million in 2014,2015 and 2016

The PIK rolls up at 14.25% compound to August 2017. Currently it's around 210 million and will be 580 million by maturity.

in short, unless there is some amazing amount of extra revenue found, then the glazers can't even begin to hope to pay off the debt.

Originally Posted by BryanRobson'sLiver

Lickspittle

You knew it was coming, why the suprise!?


The only suprise is that not even he can bring himself to say 'they are doing nothing wrong' in light of this summers activity!


Somebody is looking to be the fool as each season continues! and it aint you or me!

Originally Posted by moransbleedinghead

from elsewhere





in short, unless there is some amazing amount of extra revenue found, then the glazers can't even begin to hope to pay off the debt.

They'll never pay off the debt, it's not in their interests too. They can take the interest payments out of the profits and reduce the tax they pay. Why would they ever clear it?