Overreaction or epiphany

Originally Posted by S/Side.Red

Probably, but it's to be expected. Great thing about pre-season and early wins is the optimism flows. Few United fans making a little too much of scrappy wins over Hull, but at the same time no need for an overreaction to Saturday.

Only just watched the game and it was pretty abysmal stuff, but this is still a team in transition. No real authority at the back, a very dubious midfield pairing and an aging strike pairing. Plus Mourinho certainly made a mess of selection and gameplan.

City look much further ahead in their progress, as Guardiola seems to have got his message across quickly, but there's so much obvious development for United to go through that you'd hope we'll be better in the second half of the season, and then next year.

City have had a better team than United for 4 of the last 5 seasons and they've beaten us 4 out of the last 6 derbies at Old Trafford. It was hardly a shock result.

Originally Posted by believe

So basically, Jose needs three years.

To do what?

Originally Posted by Sparky***

To do what?

To transition.

Ps I'll end this here by admitting I was being facetious.

Originally Posted by Sparky***

City have had a better team than United for 4 of the last 5 seasons and they've beaten us 4 out of the last 6 derbies at Old Trafford. It was hardly a shock result.



To do what?

I have to disagree. the addition of mkhitaryan, bailly, pogba and ibra, plus the emergence of rashford (not to mention aguero's absence) gave us every reason to think we were favourites. jose blew it.

if he doesn't already realise rooney is past it and is never a midfielder, fellaini is shit, a 2-man midfield is a bad idea, playing half-fit players doesn't work, etc, three years won't help. the problem would appear to be jose's stupidity.

all that he's likely to realise is that new jose isn't working and he'll revert to old jose. then we might as well have kept the philosopher.

Originally Posted by Sparky***

City have had a better team than United for 4 of the last 5 seasons and they've beaten us 4 out of the last 6 derbies at Old Trafford. It was hardly a shock result.

Well they weren't very good in their previous two visits. Got battered 4-1 and then played for a 0-0 last year. They're just a very different side now already. The intensity is there, some of the big egos have been cut out and they look totally in tune with their gameplan.

Guardiola is making it look a lot easier than I expected so far. He's still working with plenty of duds yet the changes are stark.

We still seem unsure on which players we prefer in certain positions and I think there'll be some formation tinkering too.

Originally Posted by jem

I have to disagree. the addition of mkhitaryan, bailly, pogba and ibra, plus the emergence of rashford (not to mention aguero's absence) gave us every reason to think we were favourites. jose blew it.

if he doesn't already realise rooney is past it and is never a midfielder, fellaini is shit, a 2-man midfield is a bad idea, playing half-fit players doesn't work, etc, three years won't help. the problem would appear to be jose's stupidity.

all that he's likely to realise is that new jose isn't working and he'll revert to old jose. then we might as well have kept the philosopher.

old jose, new jose? what? He admitted he got the selection wrong anyway. Have no idea how jose behaves himself has anything to do with our centre backs having a brain fart and not dealing with a simple long hoofed clearance and Zlatan missing an open goal.

Originally Posted by S/Side.Red

Well they weren't very good in their previous two visits. Got battered 4-1 and then played for a 0-0 last year. They're just a very different side now already. The intensity is there, some of the big egos have been cut out and they look totally in tune with their gameplan.

Guardiola is making it look a lot easier than I expected so far. He's still working with plenty of duds yet the changes are stark.

We still seem unsure on which players we prefer in certain positions and I think there'll be some formation tinkering too.

And yet as bad as United obviously were if Zlatan had a bit more composure in front of an open goal we'd have gone in at half time 2-2. Add to that the blatant red card offence by the goalkeeper and pen they got away with i'd say they're not as in tune as you'd think.

United have so far played two teams who have had very good starts to the season in Hull and Man City, Southampton are no mugs either. Meanwhile City need an farcical own goal to beat a Sunderland team that Everton destroyed 3-0 on Monday..they've beaten a dreadful west ham side that just conceded 4 at home to watford and a Stoke side who just got whomped 4-0 at home by spurs.

Let's have a bit of perspective please. City were good, but only because United somehow got sucked into believing their own hype and forgot to work for a victory.

I will agree with you that Guardiola has cut out a lot of the fat from the squad. There's no passengers in that City team, they all graft.

Originally Posted by Sparky***

old jose, new jose? what? He admitted he got the selection wrong anyway. Have no idea how jose behaves himself has anything to do with our centre backs having a brain fart and not dealing with a simple long hoofed clearance and Zlatan missing an open goal.



And yet as bad as United obviously were if Zlatan had a bit more composure in front of an open goal we'd have gone in at half time 2-2. Add to that the blatant red card offence by the goalkeeper and pen they got away with i'd say they're not as in tune as you'd think.

United have so far played two teams who have had very good starts to the season in Hull and Man City, Southampton are no mugs either. Meanwhile City need an farcical own goal to beat a Sunderland team that Everton destroyed 3-0 on Monday..they've beaten a dreadful west ham side that just conceded 4 at home to watford and a Stoke side who just got whomped 4-0 at home by spurs.

Let's have a bit of perspective please. City were good, but only because United somehow got sucked into believing their own hype and forgot to work for a victory.

I will agree with you that Guardiola has cut out a lot of the fat from the squad. There's no passengers in that City team, they all graft.

Wise words

The entire league is still settling down. Not just United and city. Already teams are over and underachieving.

It'll level out were as equipped as most teams to push for the title. And we'll do that.

Originally Posted by S/Side.Red

Well they weren't very good in their previous two visits. Got battered 4-1 and then played for a 0-0 last year. They're just a very different side now already. The intensity is there, some of the big egos have been cut out and they look totally in tune with their gameplan.

Guardiola is making it look a lot easier than I expected so far. He's still working with plenty of duds yet the changes are stark.

We still seem unsure on which players we prefer in certain positions and I think there'll be some formation tinkering too.

4-2, but yeah.

After that game almost everybody thought LvG had finally cracked it

Originally Posted by S/Side.Red

Guardiola is making it look a lot easier than I expected so far. He's still working with plenty of duds yet the changes are stark.

We still seem unsure on which players we prefer in certain positions and I think there'll be some formation tinkering too.

It's almost like one manager has only been in charge for 2 and a half months vs another who knew he was going to city for a year.

Originally Posted by Sparky***

old jose, new jose? what? He admitted he got the selection wrong anyway. Have no idea how jose behaves himself has anything to do with our centre backs having a brain fart and not dealing with a simple long hoofed clearance and Zlatan missing an open goal.

old jose would have played a very conservative, defensive formation, choked the game and hoped for a goal on the break (and told his players to foul a lot). the centre backs did not cover themselves in glory, but they were playing without any midfield cover and that's what happens when centre backs get exposed. vidic v torres, rio v bellamy... that sort of thing. zlatan did not miss an open goal. he snatched at a shot when the keeper was out, but there was a defender covering. I did not see jose admit he got the selection wrong. I believe he said performances were poor, not the tactics. he is wrong about that.

this was not about a mistake by bailly and blind. it was about him sending out a team that was not fit for purpose. and the way we lost the midfield was no £#%&!ing surprise at all, because we even did that against hull.

jonny evans v carlton cole. ;0)

Originally Posted by jem

old jose would have played a very conservative, defensive formation, choked the game and hoped for a goal on the break (and told his players to foul a lot). the centre backs did not cover themselves in glory, but they were playing without any midfield cover and that's what happens when centre backs get exposed. vidic v torres, rio v bellamy... that sort of thing. zlatan did not miss an open goal. he snatched at a shot when the keeper was out, but there was a defender covering. I did not see jose admit he got the selection wrong. I believe he said performances were poor, not the tactics. he is wrong about that.

this was not about a mistake by bailly and blind. it was about him sending out a team that was not fit for purpose. and the way we lost the midfield was no £#%&!ing surprise at all, because we even did that against hull.

Alright mate.

Originally Posted by Sparky***

Alright mate.

fellaini + 1 is not a midfield. you should re-read the hull match thread. I would say re-read the city one too, but it's just you being rattled mostly.

Originally Posted by jem

fellaini + 1 is not a midfield. you should re-read the hull match thread. I would say re-read the city one too, but it's just you being rattled mostly.

Fair enough. I think we all know who needs dropping in this team.

Originally Posted by Sparky***

Fair enough. I think we all know who needs dropping in this team.

we, apparently, do. the manager does not.

Originally Posted by jem

we, apparently, do. the manager does not.

Well if he even has a cursory glance at the video of the first half, it will become glaringly obvious.

Originally Posted by Sparky***

Well if he even has a cursory glance at the video of the first half, it will become glaringly obvious.

I would like to believe this, but the whole "wake-up call" thing.... how could he not know this already? instead of hoping he'll learn from his mistakes, I'd rather he used some common sense to avoid them.

our squad is good enough to put out a balanced side, play sensibly and not embarrass ourselves in the first half. all we seem to do these days is make excuses for our managers.

incidentally, in case you think hindsight is a wonderful thing:

http://www.utdforum.com/forum/showpo...5&postcount=52

Originally Posted by jem

our squad is good enough to put out a balanced side, play sensibly and not embarrass ourselves in the first half. all we seem to do these days is make excuses for our managers.

tbh you were obsessing about staring line ups no matter who the manager was. You're £#%&!ing asperger's as £#%&! about midfield line-ups.

Originally Posted by Sparky***

tbh you were obsessing about staring line ups no matter who the manager was. You're £#%&!ing asperger's as £#%&! about midfield line-ups.

because having a balanced team matters. it's hardly my fault they keep making the same £#%&!ing mistakes over and over. and it's pretty £#%&!ing obvious I was right. maybe call it a wake-up call, eh?

guardiola has basically slowed city down and stretched the pitch long using his 6 line structure. he's done this inside 3 months with players who mostly are little or no better than the ones lvg failed to do anything close to the same with at united...

that very simple idea effectively dominates the opponent's mindset from the off, and as long as city's passing remains somewhere near sharp and they don't hesitate at all, then it will work well enough long before they can ever claim to have mastered it.

the real beauty is that it allows plenty of space for their attack to exploit at full pace and he's already shown emphatically that he's more than happy to adapt to the english game with long balls to ensure his players don't get shown up. whether that's a short-cut to help navigate the early part of the season or whether it's a longer term concession to the lesser quality of his players remains to be seen...

Originally Posted by Tumescent Throb

guardiola has basically slowed city down and stretched the pitch long using his 6 line structure. he's done this inside 3 months with players who mostly are little or no better than the ones lvg failed to do anything close to the same with at united...

that very simple idea effectively dominates the opponent's mindset from the off, and as long as city's passing remains somewhere near sharp and they don't hesitate at all, then it will work well enough long before they can ever claim to have mastered it.

the real beauty is that it allows plenty of space for their attack to exploit at full pace and he's already shown emphatically that he's more than happy to adapt to the english game with long balls to ensure his players don't get shown up. whether that's a short-cut to help navigate the early part of the season or whether it's a longer term concession to the lesser quality of his players remains to be seen...

£#%&! all you like over pep, but we made them look good and it had nothing to do with 6-line structures.