Scholes on 3-5-2

Originally Posted by S/Side.Red

The last time we played with a back four was against Crystal Palace at home. We won 1-0 and the general consensus was it was turgid. Previous to that, we'd won two of our last six games playing a back four, including a win over Everton in which they dominated spells.

LvG switched to a back three for Southampton and since then it's P:12 W:8 D:3 L1

Given that the three draws were Villa, Stoke and Spurs and therefore not awful results, it's really just the Southampton game that has been the big letdown since the switch back to a three. I prefer a back four as I prefer 4-3-3; I just don't go along with the notion that there's no logic or reason behind decisions made by one of the greatest coaches in the world

You've got your facts wrong

We also played 4 at the back against Hull and Stoke at home

Originally Posted by Coracao

You should be thankful. As once again we served up some of the worst football i've seen a United side play. Through a combination of a shit formation, and bizarre player selection and positioning.

People may claim that 3 at the back limits the oppositions opportuntunities (debatable considering how many chances we give away every week), but more importantly, it completely nullifies ourselves. Which is unacceptable for a club of this stature and the philosophy of which United is truly supposed to be about, i.e. attacking football.

I'll take your word for it, but United have generally bored me to tears, especially in this type of game, for about six years now. Tbh more of our problems this year have come away from home. I think we're among the top goalscorers at home, but away it's been pitiful. Can't help thinking the lack of pace in attack makes us a less fearful proposition on the break. That's presumably why LvG has been trying to get Di Maria into the frontline and why Wilson was thrown on at QPR, where he seemed to make a huge difference.

But again a key issue is an insufficient midfield. We're here after mass investment with Rooney as the hub of the team playing as a pure central midfielder. Perhaps had Shaw been fit Blind could have played in there, but at the moment I see these issues as being a bigger factor for us.

Originally Posted by ZiggyStardust

You've got your facts wrong

We also played 4 at the back against Hull and Stoke at home

Another wholly unconvincing performance? So we played Palace and Stoke at home with a back four and it wasn't great, right?

My point is really that four at the back wasn't working great either, and that if anything we've been more solid game to game with a three. The football is obviously a different matter, but the Southampton game is the only really poor result since the change.

Originally Posted by ZiggyStardust

You've got your facts wrong

We also played 4 at the back against Hull and Stoke at home

Shots fired!

Sage vs Sage. The battle we've all been waiting for.

Originally Posted by S/Side.Red

I'll take your word for it, but United have generally bored me to tears, especially in this type of game, for about six years now. Tbh more of our problems this year have come away from home. I think we're among the top goalscorers at home, but away it's been pitiful. Can't help thinking the lack of pace in attack makes us a less fearful proposition on the break. That's presumably why LvG has been trying to get Di Maria into the frontline and why Wilson was thrown on at QPR, where he seemed to make a huge difference.

But again a key issue is an insufficient midfield. We're here after mass investment with Rooney as the hub of the team playing as a pure central midfielder. Perhaps had Shaw been fit Blind could have played in there, but at the moment I see these issues as being a bigger factor for us.

The last time we played football I really enjoyed was 06/07. Since then we have become more functional by the passing year. This season has seen some of the worst, negative shite I've ever seen though, and I watched a Moyes United last season.

It is not just pace, but a side completely devoid of people who are willing, or capable of carrying the ball. Only Di Maria and Januzaj have shown the capability of doing it. One is now being played in a position where he can't carry it out, and the other is a kid woefully out of form.

We also have zero penetration in wide areas, with players failing to get past their full back. This is partly down to this ridiculous system with a lack of an overlap, and then expecting a 19 year old full back and a limited winger (who relied on interplay with his full back to do anything) to create chances from wide areas.

To add to this wonderful equation, we have slow strikers, and a number 10 in Mata who is incredibly slow, can't beat a man and is easily knocked off the ball. And that's without mentioning the central midfield. It is little wonder we barely create any chances.

This side is probably one of the most dysfunctional in the league, with the only element that anyone has any faith in being the keeper.

LVG has a massive job on this summer, and he needs to get it right. It's been painful watching us so far.

Btw, looking at the fixture list, would it be right to say we've played a back four away from home twice? Leicester and WBA? Conceded seven goals and were sliced through with ease by two of the poorest sides in the league?

Originally Posted by Coracao

The last time we played football I really enjoyed was 06/07. Since then we have become more functional by the passing year. This season has seen some of the worst, negative shite I've ever seen though, and I watched a Moyes United last season.

It is not just pace, but a side completely devoid of people who are willing, or capable of carrying the ball. Only Di Maria and Januzaj have shown the capability of doing it. One is now being played in a position where he can't carry it out, and the other is a kid woefully out of form.

We also have zero penetration in wide areas, with players failing to get past their full back. This is partly down to this ridiculous system with a lack of an overlap, and then expecting a 19 year old full back and a limited winger (who relied on interplay with his full back to do anything) to create chances from wide areas.

To add to this wonderful equation, we have slow strikers, and a number 10 in Mata who is incredibly slow, can't beat a man and is easily knocked off the ball. And that's without mentioning the central midfield. It is little wonder we barely create any chances.

This side is probably one of the most dysfunctional in the league, with the only element that anyone has any faith in being the keeper.

LVG has a massive job on this summer, and he needs to get it right. It's been painful watching us so far.

I agree with all of that, although LvG clearly thinks it would be even worse in another system

Another easily forgotten fact is we came into this season with two full-backs Surely an area LvG will strengthen this summer.

Originally Posted by S/Side.Red

Another wholly unconvincing performance? So we played Palace and Stoke at home with a back four and it wasn't great, right?

My point is really that four at the back wasn't working great either, and that if anything we've been more solid game to game with a three. The football is obviously a different matter, but the Southampton game is the only really poor result since the change.

Weren't great going forward but where fully in control up until injury time when they tossed a few balls in the box and we panicked a bit

We were hardly solid with 3 at the back at home to Liverpool and away to Arsenal and Southampton

I don't buy that we can only be solid with 3 at back. Select the right midfield and attack and we can have a balanced solid team

Big issue earlier on this season was physically we were nowhere near 100%
Loads of players legs went after 60 mins in matches but that isn't a problem now

Originally Posted by S/Side.Red

Btw, looking at the fixture list, would it be right to say we've played a back four away from home twice? Leicester and WBA? Conceded seven goals and were sliced through with ease by two of the poorest sides in the league?



I agree with all of that, although LvG clearly thinks it would be even worse in another system

Another easily forgotten fact is we came into this season with two full-backs Surely an area LvG will strengthen this summer.

We played 4 at the back at city. We could quite have easily shipped numerous goals in other games with 3 at the back but got away with it.

Originally Posted by S/Side.Red

Btw, looking at the fixture list, would it be right to say we've played a back four away from home twice? Leicester and WBA? Conceded seven goals and were sliced through with ease by two of the poorest sides in the league?.

Completely different games. Leicester was a bit of a one off and whether we play 3 or 4 at the back we are a lot better defensively now

WBA had 2 shots in the whole match but scored both including the first one being a brilliant finish from outside the box
Hardly taken to the cleaners

If you want to see match where we were sliced open then watch our matches against Liverpool and Arsenal which funnily enough we played with 3 at the back

Originally Posted by ZiggyStardust

Weren't great going forward but where fully in control up until injury time when they tossed a few balls in the box and we panicked a bit

We were hardly solid with 3 at the back at home to Liverpool and away to Arsenal and Southampton

I don't buy that we can only be sold with 3 at back. Select the right midfield and attack and we can have a balanced solid team

Big issue earlier on this season was physically we were nowhere near 100%
Loads of players legs went after 60 mins in matches but that isn't a problem now

I thought we restricted So'ton to only a couple of chances, despite Mcnair being shocking. Arsenal was mainly the Wilshere chance.

We can switch again, but it's a lot easier on paper, especially as a switch to a 4-3-3 for example probably means leaving out RvP, Mata and Falcao. That's a huge gamble for a manager to make when still trying to build team unity. Certainly RvP and Falcao would see their arses quite dramatically

Originally Posted by Coracao

We played 4 at the back at city. We could quite have easily shipped numerous goals in other games with 3 at the back but got away with it.

Recently? We will always give up chances, but I think we've generally relied on DDG a fair bit less recently, even if he made a good save at QPR. The issue would be whether LvG thinks they've improved enough to move back to a four. Some accounts suggested we also went a bit wayward at the back on Saturday after the change.

Leicester at OT will be interesting. If he changes to a back four and we win well, he'll be under pressure to keep it for West Ham away.

Originally Posted by S/Side.Red

I thought we restricted So'ton to only a couple of chances, despite Mcnair being shocking. Arsenal was mainly the Wilshere chance.

We can switch again, but it's a lot easier on paper, especially as a switch to a 4-3-3 for example probably means leaving out RvP, Mata and Falcao. That's a huge gamble for a manager to make when still trying to build team unity. Certainly RvP and Falcao would see their arses quite dramatically

Well that's why he has supposedly big balls, to make the tough but correct decision
Falcao is only on loan so that's not a long term problem and van Persie is at an age where he has to accept being a squad player. If he's not happy with that then he can £#%&! off too

Oh and De Gea might not have needed to make too many great saves against Southampton and Arsenal but that was because both of them £#%&!ed up the positions they got into
We could easily have conceded a number of goals in both matches on another day so hardly solid

What's you guys' preferred team from this point on then?

Originally Posted by S/Side.Red

What's you guys' preferred team from this point on then?

Chelsea

I know, cheap shot. But our squad is a £#%&!ing mess. All that money and it's completely unbalanced. Our midfield options make me cry.

Originally Posted by ZiggyStardust

Well that's why he has supposedly big balls, to make the tough but correct decision
Falcao is only on loan so that's not a long term problem and van Persie is at an age where he has to accept being a squad player. If he's not happy with that then he can £#%&! off too

Oh and De Gea might not have needed to make too many great saves against Southampton and Arsenal but that was because both of them £#%&!ed up the positions they got into
We could easily have conceded a number of goals in both matches on another day so hardly solid

True, but it's a risk. One of Moyes' early mistakes appeared to be being a little to casual in pissing off the big egos. It's tough for a new manager to really create a strong dressing room with huge personalities sulking on the sidelines. I think he's tried to fit the big names into his side all season; I suspect it'll be toward the end of the campaign that he may drop one or two a bit more readily.

Originally Posted by S/Side.Red

What's you guys' preferred team from this point on then?

Probably this if Wilson continues to progress from here

De Gea
Rafael---Smallling---Rojo---Shaw
Herrera---Carrick---Blind
Wilson---Rooney---Di Maria

For most home matches we can play Di Maria in Blind's spot in the midifield 3 and maybe play Januzaj in the wide forward role if he gets his mojo back
Young and Lingard could possibly play that role as well

Really need better options going forward in regards to players comfortable playing out wide and beating a man

Originally Posted by S/Side.Red

What's you guys' preferred team from this point on then?

........................................ddg

rafael..............not arsed......rojo......shaw

.....................blind........carrick

januzaj.................herrera...........di maria

.......................rooney

Will never happen due to the people who would need to be dropped though. Still think Januzaj needs to be persisted with, he has potential world class ability IMO.

Originally Posted by ZiggyStardust

Probably this if Wilson continues to progress from here

De Gea
Rafael---Smallling---Rojo---Shaw
Herrera---Carrick---Blind
Wilson---Rooney---Di Maria

For most home matches we can play Di Maria in Blind's spot in the midifield 3 and maybe play Januzaj in the wide forward role if he gets his mojo back
Young and Lingard could possibly play that role as well

Really need better options going forward in regards to players comfortable playing out wide and beating a man

Deffo. I've thought for a while now that LvG will look to £#%&! Falcao and RvP off and get a Bale/Reus type. Rooney could possibly do that in the short term to allow LvG to play 4-3-3 and include RvP or Falcao for the last few months.

Would love to add Draxler to the midfield tbh

Originally Posted by S/Side.Red

Deffo. I've thought for a while now that LvG will look to £#%&! Falcao and RvP off and get a Bale/Reus type. Rooney could possibly do that in the short term to allow LvG to play 4-3-3 and include RvP or Falcao for the last few months.

Would love to add Draxler to the midfield tbh

This. All this. Depay too...

Originally Posted by Coracao

........................................ddg

rafael..............not arsed......rojo......shaw

.....................blind........carrick

januzaj.................herrera...........di maria

.......................rooney

Will never happen due to the people who would need to be dropped though. Still think Januzaj needs to be persisted with, he has potential world class ability IMO.

I agree. Those would be LvG's preferred two to play wide if he goes 4-3-3, although they didn't do well when it happened earlier this season. I wouldn't be surprised if that's the side he really wanted to persist with for a while, but as you suggest it means dropping the three big players in Mata, Falcao and RvP. Maybe in April

DDG

Rafael any @#%&! Rojo Shaw

Carrick or Blind

Herrera Mata Di Maria

2 from 3 of Rooney/RVP/Falcao

Long term just one striker, Mata out Vidal and Reus in.

Originally Posted by S/Side.Red

What's you guys' preferred team from this point on then?

De Gea

Rafael Smalling Rojo Shaw

Carrick
Hererra...................Blind

Di Maria
Rooney.............Falcao